Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself
April 10, 2010In 1996 when Apple was seemingly on the ropes, Adobe made a crucial business decision and one that is coming back to bite them in the ass. They declared that their primary development platform would be Windows; subsequently, every new application or major revision of a product was introduced for Windows first and followed months later, sometimes never at all, by a Mac version.
After Steve Jobs took over and he was charting out a new course with OS X, Apple reached out many times to Abode to introduce a native version of their suite for the new OS. Adobe never committed – standing by its prediction that OS X would never gain momentum or share and it would ride the Windows ascendancy. Adobe thought that it had the dominant hand and displayed its arrogance in public.
Creative professionals will “be able to edit their video in Premiere, edit their images in Photoshop and be able to create DVDs in a very creative way”, Chizen said. But they may not be able to do that on a Mac with an Adobe product. Making a Mac DVD product is “something we’re still evaluating”, Chizen said.
Adobe Acrobat 4.x and 5.0 currently do not offer native support for Apple’s new OS X operating system. Adobe After Effects 5.0 currently does not offer native support for Apple’s new OS X operating system. After Effects 5.0 is supported in OS X classic mode
Adobe FrameMaker 6.0, FrameMaker+SGML 6.0 and FrameViewer 6.0 currently do not offer native support for Apple’s new OSX operating system
Adobe GoLive currently does not offer native support for Apple’s new OS X operating system
Adobe Premiere currently does not offer native support for Apple’s new OS X operating system. Premiere 6.0 also will not work in OS X in classic mode
Adobe currently does not offer native support for Adobe Photoshop Elements for the OS X operating system
Adobe Photoshop currently does not offer native support for Apple’s new OS X operating system
Adobe LiveMotion currently does not offer native support for Apple’s new OS X operating system
• Adobe dropping support for several Mac products, most recently its FrameMaker publishing software and most notably its Premiere video editing application, whose demise as a Mac application was attributed to strong competition from Apple’s Final Cut programs.
• Several new Adobe products have been introduced in Windows-only versions. In the case of Atmosphere, a new 3D animation application, the decision to skip the Mac was attributed to a small pool of potential customers. In the case of Photoshop Album, a light-duty consumer photo application, a similar application was already built into OS X. With its Encore DVD-authoring package, Adobe again pointed to competition from an Apple video application.
• Adobe caused a stir among Apple devotees last year by republishing test results that showed certain Adobe applications running faster on Windows PCs than on Macs.
• Adobe, which could once be relied upon to turn up at any Apple gathering, has skipped several Macworld events in recent years.
It wasn’t until 2005 that Adobe ported Photoshop to OS X.
Matter of fact, it was sure of its decision to forget OS X development that it focused Premiere solely for Windows – only to see Apple turnaround and buy a Macromedia offshoot, repackage it as a Final Cut and cut Adobe out a lucrative stream.
John Nack has answered the burning question of OS X Adobe app users everywhere on his blog yesterday: when will we see native Intel OS X versions for all the shiny new Macs Apple is rolling out this year? Unfortunately, the response is less than ideal. In fact, I think it belies something fishy is up either with Adobe, Apple or both.
John Nack’s answer is basically that they have no plans to update the current CS2 or Studio 8 suites to run natively on Intel OS X, which means anyone buying a new Intel Mac this year will have to deal with running these apps in the Rosetta emulation layer. While it seems like this might be at least workable for some users, it is by no means ideal. The only way to get an Intel version of either suite, as of Adobe’s current plans, is to purchase a new/upgrade suite sometime in 20
4 years since Nack’s decision, Apple is clicking on all cylinders – it has not only reinforced its dominance in the creative graphics segment but also the web development platform, the mobile development platform and content delivery. Adobe’s not feeling too good about their dominance or that primary development platform choice any more. Are they?
Adobe had multiple chances to prove their worth to Apple and they failed miserably. They ignored the OS X version of Flash. They ignored Photoshop – witness the rise of Acorn, Pixelmator etc.
Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself. You made a business decision in 1996 to screw Apple when it needed you most to gain credibility for its fledgling OS with the creative crowd. Somehow, Apple making a business decision to protect its customers from your shitty product is the most egregious ethical concern of our time.
How about Adobe start fixing their relationship with the Apple community one step at a time: fix Flash for the desktop and then we can chat about the iPhone, iPad and i….
Adobe made a wrong bet in 1996 and is suffering the consequences in 2010 and has no one to blame except themselves. It’s Adobe’s turn to show that it matters to Apple and the tech industry. I don’t remember Apple or Steve Jobs whining in 1996-2006 about Adobe not contributing to the Apple ecosystem.
Innovate or die, bitches.
Touche! I was at Apple for a number of the years when they tried to work with Adobe to native Mac versions of their software. At one point they wanted Apple to pay for the porting of Mac Versions of their software. They simply refused to cooperate. Now the battlefield is moving to mobile Adobe is not ready and Apple may no longer need them. You make your bed you have to lay in it!
I think the solution is simple.
Apple sucks at making good reliable open platforms.
Just switch to Windows.
I wiped out iTunes from my Windows machines hard drives years ago
Yes. Move to a successful open platform like…er… Windows? Good? Reliable? Open?
There is nothing reliable or open about windows. The only thing good about it is that it attracts the malware distributors so people with real operating systems don’t have to worry about what new super amazing antivirus to buy.
Who let this guy (Nick Kilo) in? Windows is reliable, open and better than Mac? Now we know why dim-wits like you use Windows and bad mouth other operating systems without even knowing what you are missing.
Putting reliable and windows in the same sentence just doesn’t make any sense at all. OK, it’s 2 sentences – but it’s just one idea, so does that count?
I avoid Windows as much as possible (having had numerous horrendous experiences with it over the years since it replaced DOS), I just have a small partition for unavoidable “won’t run on anything else and can’t be replicated” Windows apps – which does not include anything made by Adobe.
@Nick Kilo,
Yo Nick, don’t let the door hit you on your way out… yeah, that open source platform Windows is so tasty – Microsoft’s really been working overtime to help OSS!
@everyone else
Well, with Nick gone, I think the average IQ of Apple developers just went went to red hot heat.
Windows reliable? Windows 2000 could have been. But Windows 7 is mess to me.
I think Mac is a bit of a lie in terms of reliability, I have worked with them for a while and found them not better than Windows.
Paying for the look is something I cannot afford and I definitely go for what works at the most affordable price. I would switch to Linux but i am not a computer geek, so I stick to Windows.
Mac is definitely an obsolete idea, it reflects the concept of “expensive” that I find extremely non-democratic, but tipycal of oligarchy.
That does not mean that there are interesting solutions in a Mac that should be copied, but the being unique and exclusive … I am not going to buy into it, it sounds a bit like bias to me.
“Mac is an absolute idea”: I think Apple is working on that with the iPad.
It’s not about windows or mac anymore. Adobe will head into the ground with their monopoly.
You’re an idiot! Windows is nothing but a virus infected, update this, security patch that, Drive missing there old drive in another place nightmare. I was a Windows dude, now it’s Mac OS X. The best I say, the best!
Hmm, I’ve never had a problem with Windows. It is a much better platform than OSX in my opinion. Apple is an even worse money-grabbing corporation than Microsoft, without doubt. iTunes is a piece of garbage.
I agree with everyone here who has spoken on the “poor quality” of Windows. I like a quote I heard once “85% of the worlds computers have a serious virus…that virus is called Microsoft Windows”.
If you want a good reliable open platform, you have to have UNIX. The most popular UNIX systems include the Mac OS X & Linux. I run Ubuntu Linux as my main OS. It is very good and it is actually good, open & reliable, unlike Windows bloatware.
My brother ran Ubuntu for a while, and just recently switched back to Windows for 7 because he was tired of having to find workarounds for everything he was used to doing, and not being able to play all the games he wanted to play.
And exactly what does Windows 7 come with in terms of bloatware? I can say it was pretty spare (in a good way) when I first installed it. Very clean interface, excellent features.
@OpinionatedEngineer: Your brother obviously didn’t take the time to learn Ubuntu properly. I’ve never needed any workarounds.
And of course you can’t play Windows-only games on Linux, although now a few work via Wine.
How is OS X not more open than f.e. Windows? More than half of OS X is open source. You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
More than half of OSX is open source? That seems like a bit much. Darwin is, of course, open source but Darwin is hardly half of OSX. It’s just a kernel (and as Stallman has pointed out, a kernel isn’t an OS).
At the same time Apple isn’t exactly an active contributor to the Freebsd project (considering they ripped off the FreeBSD userland and claimed it as the basis of their Unix roots).
To their credit they do a lot for the WebKit project, but it’s hard to accept that they’re much more “open” than MS.
Half of OSX is open source, huh?
Garren, Darwin is not just the Kernel, it’s a complete OS, just without UI. And it’s based on NEXTStep and BSD, not just FreeBSD.
So: Half of OS X is open source, yes.
Stallman would call it BSD/Darwin and BSD/OSX … or maybe BSD/GNU/OSX.
I am of the view that the only true OS is in fact the kernel…everything else on top of that, no matter how essential, is simply an application that runs on top of the OS as far as I’m concerned.
So, Stallman is wrong I’m afraid. The userland is an application set, not part of the OS. It may be essential for the OS to be useful, but that doesn’t make it part of the OS. Whatever you’re doing right now is inside an application. It’s essential for whatever you’re doing…but is it part of the OS? I think not.
Look at it this way: For an engine to be truly useful, it needs to have some kind of vehicle wrapped around it. But that doesn’t make the vehicle part of the engine now, does it?
Same applies here.
Seriously who gives a crap if flash runs crappy. I demand a fucking choice on what I can install. Stop kissing apple’s ass.
Hi Guy’s,
I am an IT Consultant, mainly working on Windows architecture. I see the pro’s and con’s of both MS and OS, they both have pro’s & con’s.
For those that say malware writers only target Windows, im sorry to tell you that this is no longer the case and all Apple users had better buck up their ideas and install AV. The fact that it has been hard to penetrate OS in the past has made it even more of a mission for these a holes to attack.
Cheers.
RM
That’s not true at all. This is all made up. Adobe always release the creative suites at the same time across all platforms. No one would have bought a Mac in 1996 if it wasn’t for Adobe. Leaving flash out of the iphone makes perfect sense because I’m sure it was a deal with ATT to limit bandwidth, leaving it out of the ipad has to be a strategic move to control advertising on the ipad, and ultimately is going to drive all flash and .net programmers to support alternative operating systems. Limiting formats is why people use vlc instead of quicktime, and use firefox instead of safari. Bad programmers make bad programs, no matter what language they speak.
So it sounds like many here think that the top design software company should concentrate their development on 10% of the computer market. this makes no sense. it has struck me as very ironic the last decade or so that the company that made its first big splash as a scion to free the world from big brother’s evil control is the most totalitarian entity in their market. users are dictated to, not empowered. they do not license their software to any other hardware manufacturers, so they are direct competitors to ALL software AND hardware companies. it’s a recipe to guarantee you will always be a fringe group. maybe that’s what they want to be. if so, more power to them, but don’t damn adobe for (correctly) telling apple they don’t need them.
“don’t damn adobe for (correctly) telling apple they don’t need them.”
Likewise don’t damn Apple for (correctly) telling Adobe “Ok. B’bye.”
They weren’t being “arrogant,” they were stating a fact and making a statistical decision based on that fact.
If this is why Adobe are acting the way they are, then it just shows what a disgruntled and immature business plan they have.
I can’t wait until Microsoft put their foot down and crush Adobe for all they’re worth.. Silly Mac boys.
Wanna play games? Buy a PC. Wanna development for 95% of the population? Buy a PC. Wanna do anything else? Buy a PC.
Wanna.. Err… Edit photos? Or maybe show off a few fancy animations to your friends? Buy a Mac.
Right you are, Black Mamba. Let’s recall that 3 years after admitting that Flash on OS X needs to be fixed, they still haven’t gotten around it. Instead of attending to 2nd most popular platform, they have been busy fiddling with useless projects like Mobile Flash – serving an audience that hardly browses the web on their phone.
Only Flash Player 10.1 is a big improvement and rendering graphics is apparently faster on Safari than it is on Windows. In part Adobe was able to make this big jump in speed because Apple opened the CoreAnimation on Safari (although currently available right now in the night builds).
Also video rendering has improved, although not as much as it could as Flash on a Mac is still rendering video with the CPU. This is because there’s no GPU API on the Mac for Adobe to render video. On Windows they have access to the GPU and so there’s a big speed boost and lower GPU.
I call bullshit on that statement, Snow leopard has OpenCL support.
I call bullshit as well. VLC, Mplayer and other apps don’t slog anywhere near as hard at playing h.264 as Flash does, and they do it without hardware acceleration, too.. It’s a lack of code optimization causing the problem, not a lack of APIs.
Adobe can use Apple’s Quicktime APIs to get get hardware accelerated h.264 support. Adobe is just to stubborn and lazy to use something that Apple has already built and provided for them.
Here is a link describing the improvements and technical details.
http://www.kaourantin.net/2010/02/core-animation.html
pure lies. Mplayer is a lot (a lot!) faster than flash to read h264.
and Safari with quicktime X has no problem to accelerate h264. quicktime X is accessible to third parties.
it needs flash to be rewrite to the new api entirely ! yes it’s WORKS
works adobe did for windows.
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no. It’s not in interest of Apple to ease flash on iphone/ipad.
and yes, it’s ethical to do the right move to protect the integrity of a new platform.
Oh hell yes! I spend the effort to download embedded videos, just to avoid all the faltering of the damned flash applets. MPlayer can play stuff full screen (without even being in overlay mode) that YouTube’s flash based player has trouble with at normal size.
You -do- realize that outside of the USA and European nations that mobile technology is THE method of browsing the internet, right?
Is that why iPhone is the top selling smartphone in Japan and that Europeans line up for hours to buy the iPhone?
To be fair, the ‘smartphone’ market is a very small part of the Japanese market compared to the US. Feature phones are still the big thing there, so having a huge market share in Japan smartphone’s doesn’t mean much. Anecdotal evidence about Apple’s supply chain issue in Europe isn’t really germaine either.
Adobe Type Manager which forced Apple to come up with OpenType with Microsoft.
Lack of license of DisplayPostscript for NeXT and Apple
even when NeXT help develop the technology.
Adobe was pissed that Apple bypassed them with Quartz using their PDF technology.
Adobe thought cloud was the next big thing just like Microsoft.
In past two year Adobe has not shown Flash on a touch screen.
Most likely they can’t do it for Apple’s patents.
Plus Adobe is using LLVM to have iphone support.
I watch Flash video on my Android phone it has a touch screen.
Apple don’t have patents on touchscreens they have patents on multi-touch which they bought by acquiring Fingerworks, which may or may not stand up in court
It was TrueType that was Apple’s answer to ATM. OpenType came much later—bringing proper Unicode support.
Err… not exactly. It was the disclosure of a partnership in 1989 between Apple and Microsoft including TrueType that led Adobe to open up Type 1 and create ATM (according to the first Adobe engineer that worked on it, development on ATM started the day after John Warnock announced it at Seybold!)
The Apple-Microsoft announcement also included TrueImage, a Taiwanese PostScript clone that never went anywhere but indirectly led to PostScript Level 2.
OpenType came much later as a union of Adobe, Apple and Microsoft technologies.
“Garbage mumbo-jumbo!”
I view this only from a consumer/mac user point of view and I think Adobe should suffer. I have an old iBook that for the longest time thought was over the hill because many web pages behave poorly and videos on web pages ran/run barely at all. Recently I noticed some videos run perfectly. My conclusion is that is is Flash. I should care about Adobe after years of them not caring about my computing experience? Screw Adobe. And for you Adobe apologists, I use both OS X and Windows so don’t bother with your tired old “fan boi” BS unless you are willing to look in the mirror and see just how fan boi you are.
Glad you posted this. I’m getting tired of all this unprofessional Adobe whiny crap, being echoed by all the Apple-hating tech geeks in the interwebs. These people don’t think; they just repeat, repeat, repeat.
Apple hating tech geeks? Really? This group of people is a very small and irrelevant group.
Apple and Adobe have a complicated relationship. I think you’ve oversimplified it here. Plus Adobe, Apple, and Microsoft were all VERY different companies 14 years ago. I don’t find a whole lot of merit in the arguments in this article.
Adobe may be different from 14 years ago, but I seem to remember the Mac version of Flash being horrible in 2009 — so when it comes to giving some love to Mac users is concerned, precious little has changed.
The article is spot on — it goes to the heart of just how unbelievably hypocritical that anti-Apple arguments are.
Dear Adobe, make some great products, with a real Mac GUI, and we will be a lot more eager to help you out in a pinch.
They *are* small in terms of size and knowledge, but they are also part of Adobe’s astroturfing PR strategy: if you can’t get success from hard work, technical prowess and foresight, try to steal it with BS.
It isn’t about hating Apple. I think they make great, if out of my budget, products. It is about them making an arbitrary decision that affects more than just Flash with this latest SDK change.
If they want to keep Adobe products off their products, then just do that. Change your SDK terms to say ‘Adobe applications or application made using Adobe cross compiling tools are not allowed.’ Leave everyone else that gets dragnetted by this policy out of it.
Excellent post.
If Apple decides to do a Photoshop killer next year, that will be it. Adobe will be an empty shell, devoid of value.
And mobile platforms that let Flash in are only screwing themselves, because the devices with hemorrhage battery life.
And who needs a Photoshop, when you have a GIMP.
(It won’t implode your wallet, either)
You think GIMP is a legitimate alternative to Photoshop?
And you put your credibility where?
Yeah, GIMP is pretty good. Open-source FTW!
Sorry, but GIMPs capabilities aren’t even NEAR the capabilities of photoshop. It is no replacement option for photoshop and wont be for a very long time, be sure of that.
Many professional use GIMP instead of photoshop. I think that proves its as good as Adobe Photoshop.
At first I thought it would make sense for Apple to make an updated MacPaint (including the Zebra girl), and include it with the iApps. Thinking about it a little further, it would really serve Adobe right if Apple made a modern image editor based on CoreImage, and released the source as a DTS sample code project!
So, when Apple becomes even more of a monopoly, that will be it? For Apple, perhaps.
Still need good alternatives to InDesign and Illustrator. The others we can do without.
I don’t think Apple is able to make something even close to photoshop. Apple is good at creating simple functions through hiding much of the work needed to do so. That works well for the casual consumer, but that won’t work for professional applications where control is crutial for creating acceptable results.
Also I don’t see that apple has much expertise in the fields of photoshop or similar. And it doesn’t has to. As wrong the business decisions of Adobe may have been, they will fix that one way or the other.
As to flash: who needs flash anyway… I never liked it (especially beeing a web developer).
“That works well for the casual consumer, but that won’t work for professional applications where control is crutial for creating acceptable results.”
Er, perhaps you haven’t come across this?
http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/
How about Final Cut Pro? Aperture? Are those not professional applications?
there are other boxes behind the ilife box.
Right on. It was their business decision that has put them in this place. As well as their incompetence and lack of commitment to ensuring Flash that has caused this scenario. If they are looking for any sympathy- they will find it only in the people who dislike Apple. There is no real defense of Flash by anyone, just whining. Adobe is last years SUN.
[...] Did Adobe screw themselves? I come from the “two wrongs don’t make a right” school of thought. That said I’m not sure business hardball is necessarily a wrong… [...]
Adobe products on my Mac will be gone in a Flash.
How can Adobe best help itself? Forget Flash, it’s last decade. Focus on building the best HTML5 tools in the business. Dump Screamweaver and build a REAL HTML5 authoring environment. Embrace the new reality and they’ll have users for life.
Oh, and while you’re at it, make its Mac apps truly native (no cross platform library crap). All Adobe Mac products suck and fixing them would go a long way towards reconciling with the 3rd largest company in the US.
+Note the below questions are meant to be serious+
Have you done any HTML5 development?
What HTML5 development tools have you used?
Have you done any ActionScript 3 (actual code) development in Flash or Flex?
I ask the questions because a lot of people seem to be caught up in the standards bandwagon, and haven’t really development experience to make these decisions. I don’t, since I have no HTML5 experience personally given that it is brand new.
I can’t agree more. HTML5/CS3/JS2 needs to go trough all things HML4/JS/CSS run trough already.
While we’re complaining about Adobe’s egregious sins of the past decade+, how about Adobe’s mac products stop squatting on Command-H.
I want my Command-H back in my Air applications?
YES! YES! Cmd-H squatting drives me just this side of insane!
I almost forgot that I stopped using Photoshop Elements some years back because of the abysmal user experience. Seriously. On Windows? Yes, Photoshop rocks, and rightly so. Adobe dots their i’s and crosses their t’s there.
On Mac? Alas, Human Interface Guideline compliance was just not there (Cmd-H squatting is the tip of the iceberg), and it showed … and got in my way numerous times … until one day I finally said “no more” and went with nothing for a while. (Sorry, GIMP fans, I know it has its devotees, but it just wasn’t clicking with me!)
Eventually I stumbled on Pixelmator and – while not the same as Photoshop – it was plenty good for what I needed to do. I haven’t looked back since.
I wondered when someone was going to mention Pixelmator…THIS, for the most part, might as well be the Apple version of Photoshop. Except for the CMYK stuff and a few other small things, Pixelmator does 80-90% of what Photoshop does anyway…with a smaller footprint.
Apple should seriously look at buying Pixelmator (and Lineform, for that matter) and dropping it into iLife or iWork.
Great research. Interesting post.
Personally I am starting to beleive Google is buying Adobe. The Flash platform binds together ChomeOS and Android. The Adobe tools are use to create all those ads. Microsoft/Apple is moving into ads – so Google moving into platforms is not that farfetched.
And the Adobe leadership seem to be running Adobe into the ground.
If they are not buying – perhaps they should consider it
Google hates Flash just as much as Apple.
Google hates Flash so much they just completely integrated it into Chrome. Think again.
The Gorg hates Flash so much, it is the basis for a picasa slide show…
adobe sucks!
end of story
Flash is DEAD like the floppy disk.
The floppy disk lived for a time after Apple stopped using it in its computers. However, Apple started the momentum that lead to a snowball, spreading to other computer manufacturers. Soon, no computer uses floppy disks.
Floppy. What’s a floppy?
Don’t copy that floppy!
noob alert right here!
Jesus Christ, not this again.
Floppies died because superior portable storage media came out – namely writable CDs.
But what did Apple follow the floppy with? Their direct, backwards-assed descendant, the disastrous ZIP drives and their Clicks of Death. (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-19273621.html) Those old G3 towers that came with ZIPs were synonymous with ZIP disk failure back when I was working with them in the 90s, and Apple was more than happy to redesign and rebrand their Power Macs to eradicate the very storage format Jobs championed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb9NbH_2QRc#t=164).
PCs kept shipping floppy drives – some _still_ do – and left ZIP by and large as an external product, leapfrogging it for CD-Rs. Hell, they kept shipping floppies because they were negligible to buy – no IDE, BIOS already supported them, mobo manufacturers lost nothing including the interface.
And Apple tried to push Firewire past DV into storage, but USB was ubiquitous – thanks to Apple – as well as cheaper, cross-platform and after USB 2, it performed well enough. eSATA was the death blow.
Apple’s pushing DisplayPort, which has its advantages for monitors, but HDMI is doing the same thing to it that USB did to Firewire.
Apple ditching the floppy didn’t do anything but inconvenience people who used floppy drives, forcing them to buy… Apple’s $100 USB floppy/ZIP superdrive. Everybody was moving away from them, and floppy drives _still exist_. They’re just marginalized, and they were already being marginalized by ZIP and CD-ROMs.
You can’t really hang ZipDisk on Apple’s door. That was Iomega’s doing. All Apple did was offer it as a factory-inbuilt option for a while—at a time when it had already gained a fair amount of momentum as a 3rd party peripheral. It was just as popular in the Windows world—and just as problematic.
I would have preferred to see the smaller form-factor, higher capacity, reliable MiniDisc-Data format take the market that ZipDisk commanded. Unfortunately, Sony, for some strange reason, totally failed to push MD as a data medium.
Meanwhile, CD-R is not what killed floppies; flash memory holds that mantle more than anything else. Both ZipDisk, MiniDisc, and various other rewritable magneto-optical media—beat CD-R to the consumer market by at least a year. And they were rewritable—making them more direct potential successors to floppies. But as home networking became ever more popular, and flash memory became ever more economical and reliable, the market for rewritable optical media petered out—leaving CD-R and DVD±R at the top of the consumer optical storage hill.
As for USB taking over the FW market, that was all due to it being less expensive to implement. There’s reason for that, of course: it’s cheap! Even USB2 can’t keep up with FW400. It can outrun it in a sprint, but, thanks to it being all PIO, sustained transfers are only a little more than half as fast, at best. And woe be if you have a less than zippy machine; not only will the transfer be yet slower, everything else will be as well—because, like a soft-modem (aka Win-modem), the CPU is doing the work. But it’s cheaper to put in, and the average consumer doesn’t recognise the difference, so that’s what got pushed. Meanwhile, FW lives on in applications which can’t tolerate USB’s shortcomings (much like Beta lived on for years in the industrial world, after its consumer market had been all but entirely usurped by VHS—in all its blurry, chromatically-washy glory.)
Adobe’s products have become horrifically bloated anyway. Flash is a possessed pig! Apple still excel at producing tight code that performs impressively on modest hardware (how many recent desktop OSes run well on a 400 MHz box?); they can easily do better.
Thanks for that timeline – I remember the whole delay of Apple’s next generation OS because they had to build Carbon from scratch to keep Adobe happy.
I reckon Apple will buy Adobe.
http://cimota.com/blog/2010/04/09/adbe-vs-aapl/
Yes, this is actually how I feel as well. I really can’t see it any other way.
Adobe certainly pisses me off, but as far as Photoshop is concerned, what other app can FULLY replace it and the hundreds of plug-ins that extend and enhance it?
The fact that Adobe didn’t release a fix for Acrobat Pro for the PDF print driver broken by Snow Leopard is pretty unconscionable.
Screw Flash, yes, but I really don’t think cursing Adobe is the answer either.
I hope the iPhone OS and iPad are the virtual shot across their bow that forces Adobe to wake up, fully support the Mac and clean up their act (and code). They’re looking almost as bloated, wobbly and directionless as Microsoft these days. And we all know that THAT picture sure ain’t pretty. NO amount of Photoshopping can clean up that mess.
If their were no Apple and no Macintosh, Adobe would not even exist. They should remember that.
On the contrary, if there were no Adobe and its Desktop Publishing, Apple would never have grown.
DTP was apple’s killer application.
Yes, it was their “killer app”.
However, it was done with Aldus Pagemaker (1985). Adobe didn’t buy Aldus until 1994.
Wait, wow… I didn’t know Adobe ran poorly on a Mac. Looks like my next purchase will have to be Microsoft’s Windows 7!
please try out winblows, sell all your mac hardware/software and get the latest from dell
don’t let the 3.3.1 SDK hit your fat ass on your way out
Many people myself included were seduced by Mac OSx after Vista, but 7 is winning most of us back.
People who know computer don’t buy Dells or Apples.
Actually most Alpha Geeks love their Macs.
Adobe doesn’t run poorly, Flash Player runs poorly. You can still get a Mac if you wish. OS X is rock solid.
Acrobat continues to be a hog, I test my machine’s fans by going to hulu.com and running flash movies continuously.There’s a fraction of a second delay when clicking on menu options in photoshop cs4 on my dual 2GHz G5 with 7GB ram so I’m just waiting for apple to come up with a photoshop replacement.
Damn straight. Although Flash 10.1 is a major step forward (60 percent CPU to 20), for many years i bitched about adobe’s products for mac, because seriously, they just fucking sucked. They are getting better, i’ll give them that. We’ll have to see about CS5.
Wrong bet?
Doubtful. Adobe made a choice to follow the dollars, and the serve the primary market for their products first.
They may lose out on a couple million users, but sometimes that’s the cost for keeping the other several hundred million.
While Adobe has a larger install base on Windows machines, Mac users tend to be more open with their wallet (large professional ratio). They are losing a large market of people that actually pay for their software.
lol. you’re saying some mil. users (mainly in the usa) compare to hundred of millions all over the globe? yap, right.
I realize this is a pro-Mac, pro-Apple forum. But being a designer myself, and an iPhone owner, I feel this decision by Apple is really just hurting the developers and designers. If I want to create some cool game for iPhone, I need to learn Objective-C? Common.
And what you don’t know or hear from the Apple propaganda machine is that Apple is not fixing the bugs in their own s/w that is preventing Flash from improving cpu usage on Mac by taking advantage of h/w acceleration for video decode. The comparisons to HTML5 are bogus because you’re comparing apples (pardon the pun) to oranges. A comparable comparison by a 3rd party (I think I saw this article on streamingmedia.com) where HTML5 compared to Flash with gpu support was the same. The performance problems that everyone keeps talking about is mainly due to having to do all the heavy video decoding in s/w vs. h/w.
Also, Apple is pushing HTML5 on everyone. But their own browser, Safari, on Windows doesn’t support H264. So how are they really be seriously pushing HTML5 as the standard for people to adopt? They’re still forcing people to have 2 versions of their site; one for iPhone/iPad, and one for everything else. Sure there may be some people willing to do that now to get on the iPad. But Apple went down this path before with a closed environment, and it got Steve booted out before he came back to bring them to the promise land.
I have total respect for the company. They make great products. And I totally respect their business motives here. But Jobs is not being honest about his motives. All this Flash bashing is just a smoke screen to stir up anti-Adobe/anti-Flash sentiment, so people don’t talk about the real issues, or motivation.
Did you know that of the bugs Adobe filed that would allow them to do h/w acceleration, not one of them got fixed?
Jobs claims that this translation layer results in subpar apps. What a crock of shit. You don’t think people can write crappy apps in Objective-C? Apple screen all the apps anyway. If they’re serious about their quality claims, why don’t they screen for quality, or have some set of tests that an app needs to meet to be deemed high enough quality to make it on their platform. In the end, Adobe’s packager is just translating swf byte code to native code, just like any Objective-C program compiles to. What’s the difference? But again, Jobs is deflecting all that with these ridiculous claims. Just be honest, and live or die by your decision.
I completely agree even as a Mac + iPhone owner, this article is a bit idiotic. It seems the author thinks Apple are the be all and end all, when there actually a tiny fish in a massive pond.
While Apple may not have a huge hold on the computer market, they are giants in the mobile space. They are a very big company ($50billion is a lot of money).
Apple users make up a huge proportion of Adobe’s profit, and Professional users are a tiny proportion of Apple’s user base these days. Apple sells 5x as many Macs today as 7 years ago, but the pro market has not grown at all. Thus the vast majority of the 12M macs sold per year are to consumers who are the primary user base and don’t spend much on Adobe pro products. Apple does not need Adobe anything like as much as Adobe needs Apple.
@Capnbob: According to your argument, Apple needs even less of Adobe to stay alive. Since the ‘Professionals’ is such a small market. Apple made 32.5 billion dollars in revenue in 2009. Adobe did 3.5 billion dollars in revenue. Adobe needs to keep supporting OSX to keep their business running.
>If I want to create some cool game for iPhone, I need to learn Objective-C?
Yep. How bad do you want to do it?
>All this Flash bashing is just a smoke screen to stir up anti-Adobe/anti-Flash sentiment, so people don’t talk about the real issues, or motivation.
Can I have some of what you’re smoking? Seriously, though, where’s your proof?
>Jobs claims that this translation layer results in subpar apps. What a crock of shit. You don’t think people can write crappy apps in Objective-C?
Not the point (although, nobody has yet to point to a GOOD cross platform app). The point is that there are a LOT MORE crappy apps generated by cross platform tools than by using native tools.
>Adobe’s packager is just translating swf byte code to native code, just like any Objective-C program compiles to. What’s the difference?
Objective-C to bytecode? You really aren’t a programmer are you? The difference is that using the native tools your apps will be able to keep up with advances in the API without having to wait for Adobe (or any other cross platform vendor) to “decide” to enable that feature in their framework. They could just as easily NOT enable a feature they don’t like and you’d be “locked in”. Uh oh, there’s that phrase again…
“Yep. How bad do you want to do it?”
man, oh man. because of ppl like you we are forced in learning obsolete shit. flash is a goner? yeah, and html5 won’t be around till ’22, also objective-c is the best programming lang around. great moral upstanding ppl using macs i see.
Last time I checked, ActionScript 3 is object based. If you can code in ActionScript, Objective-C shouldn’t be too hard to learn.
what dont you get? Its not about that. Its about control as well. What if there are thousands of apps on the app store done in flash and made to run on the iphone and apple wants to update its iphone os but it cant because if it does it will break all apps created using adobe kit. So Apple ends up having to wait on adobes slow ass to update its flash kit so Apple the,selfs can update without breaking other apps. DONT YOU GET IT? You never will. Adobe snubbed apple the last 10 years. Windows got 64bit a full year before the mac now Adobe is getting snubbed back, Screw them.
That’s not the first time I’ve heard the argument about “Apple can’t update it’s API’s if Flash apps are common”. That’s a huge pile of crap.
In order to run on the iPhone, it needs to use the iPhone APIs. If Apple wanted to do an update that broke the Flash compiled apps, it would also break every application written in Objective C. How often do platform makers come out with an update that breaks everything? What usually happens is they depreciate old API calls, and advise developers to use new API calls. That way, old applications don’t break, and new applications take advantage of improved APIs.
The use of a cross-platform framework does not mean Apple can no longer udpate its APIs. What cross-platform frameworks actually take away from Apple is vendor lockin. As a developer, I want to be able to use a framework that allows me to target multiple platforms, so I only have to write my application once. This lock-in means that I have to decide which platform I think is worth investing my talent in, and sticking with it. Last year, iPhone was definately the only place to be. If Apple keep screwing the developers though (with draconian rules and mysterious approval processes), they will start loosing developers, and with it their early lead.
Here’s the mental calculation potintial developers will be making:
I can
a) spend a lot of time learning an new language and writing my application, and submit it to an approval process that may reject me for any reason, and not tell me why. If by some miracle it’s accepted, I have to find a way to be discovered in a crowded marketplace that is the only place in the world to buy my product
OR
b) write in a language I already know, or choose a language that resembles a language I already know, write my application in any way that makes sense for me,sell my product without needing permission to do so, and submit it to multiple distributors. Oh, and if I used a cross-platform framework, I can target many different platforms changing very little.
The thing that never comes into this equation is the quality of the code that is output. A bad programmer will be a bad programmer no matter what language or API or platform they develop, whereas a great programmer can create great programs no matter what the tools are.
We’ve been here before. Right now it’s like the mid-80s where the Mac was the dominate platform. And by being such an arrogant, dictatorial company, they totally lost any lead they had to the point of almost going broke. I’m not putting any more effort into the iPhone, and the iPad will never be more than a niche product.
It’s sad, and in 5 years when the iPhone is a fringe product, I can’t wait to hear all you fan boys extol the superiority of your tiny market, and how the winner of the smart phone market is
Apple has a larger market cap than Dell, HP, Sony, Acer etc. so it is a pretty big fish and its sales are now $50Bn (smaller than HP but larger than most of the others).
“If I want to create some cool game for iPhone, I need to learn Objective-C? Common.”
No really, if I want to code efficiently for a new platform I should learn new skills? Common…
PS3, XBOX developers would like to have a word with you…
so true!
Do you have to learn Objective-C to write native apps? Why yes. Yes you do/should … and it is a most worthwhile experience!
The language is not proprietary and not at all tough to learn. What folks will want to learn on top of this, however, are the various Cocoa design patterns. THIS is where you get a ton of leverage vs. going other routes. The book “Cocoa Design Patterns” (Buck, Yacktman) is a most amazing eye-opener:
http://www.cocoadesignpatterns.com/
“The performance problems that everyone keeps talking about is mainly due to having to do all the heavy video decoding in s/w vs. h/w.”
MPlayer decodes video in software, and plays the likes of 640×480 and 720×405 h.264 just fine on a 1GHz machine. Flash falters left and right when playing much smaller formats. Doesn’t seem like the problem is that the grunt work is being done in software; it’s more like the problem is that it’s being done in inefficient software. (It actually did better a few versions ago.)
“Also, Apple is pushing HTML5 on everyone. But their own browser, Safari, on Windows doesn’t support H264.”
h.264 is not part of the HTML5 spec. HTML5 does not specify a video codec. (This is currently the biggest snag in the browser support picture, and indirectly related to the hopes of many that Google will free the VP8 codec, to which they recently acquired the rights, providing a high quality codec with no legal issues.)
The whole issue with Flash goes way beyond Apple. Apple raising the finger to Flash is part of a much bigger picture. A lot of people are fed up with the confounded thing.
Adobe used to be the center of my computer life and I willingly gave them hundreds of dollars a year. Now I can’t stand them and avoid them if possible.
apple brainwashing in effect!
Hi, whether or not Adobe made a bad choice with native support in the past – and whether or not Flash/Acrobat/Your Mother runs slowly – the *reason* Apple are blocking Adobe integration on iPhone is purely to retain Apple App Store revenue.
Flash 10 includes multitouch support that would allow developers & users to run web-mediated apps – effectively cutting through the Apple platform monopoly they have worked so hard to create. Recent history has shown us again and again – a walled garden approach is doomed to failure, and in the meantime user experience suffers.
What we should actually want is Adobe and Apple to work together – and we should as a result, reject the products and services of the companies that engage in dirty, greedy, squabbling – and above all those that fight for monopoly.
What the hell are you talking about? Apple did not implement Flash on the iPhones because of the same reason RIM didn’t on their Blackberries. There wasn’t a Flash player for mobile platforms. Period. Now they’re too late and they’re scrambling to get BBOS and Android versions out on next generation handsets. Apple decided it just was not going to wait for Flash and to support the advancement of technology. Now regarding the actual issue regarding the sudden outrage (which really has nothing to do with Flash itself), Apple is trying to maintain control over the look, performance, reliability and maintainability of their Appstore ecosystem. Sure it’s a business decision, but it’s one that benefits the end user, makes no difference in the eyes of most developers (excepting probably game designers working with Unity), and avoids a sudden mass of Actionscript programmers to pollute the ecosystem they built. It’s a good thing.
“benefits the end user” oh rly? and what about the millions of websites that run on flash?
“makes no difference in the eyes of most developers” oh rly? silly devs with their programming digeridoo.
“Actionscript programmers to pollute the ecosystem they built” oh rly? pollute? objective-c is better right? also, u mean the ecosystem in which apple gets all the cash and holds a complete monopoly? great “ecosystem” u got there. also it seems that this ecosystem is full of noobs and brainwashed ppl. like yourself.
Why the overkill of the first and second paragraphs together? If the new multitouch enabled Flash will bypass the App Store with web apps (web apps don’t need no stinkin’ App Store approval) why all the fuss in the first paragraph about Apple’s denial of Adobe’s cross compiler or app generator or whatever it is?
Webkit based Safari has been and will be the answer to questions about whether Apple is providing an open platform. If Apple starts to selectively block Internet access that would be a real problem.
Since I have had to deal with apps from developers who were unwilling to use native tools (i.e. unwilling to invest the time and effort to learn), I can see why Apple would be leery of them. For instance going back to the early Mac there was great effort on Apple’s part to discourage apps that were straight ports of CPM programs. I can see where this is a similar effort to only encourage Cocoa Touch implementations.
Of course there remains the possibility that an element of payback for treatment from Adobe is involved. It isn’t like Adobe didn’t do their part to bring it on (as the article displays). I hope both companies can get past this and work together in the future like they did in the early Mac days.
Good post.
Out of interest, what to Apple users use for photo manipulation and graphics creation if they (we – for I am an OSX convert) don’t use Photoshop?
“[Apple]…reinforced its dominance in the creative graphics segment”
I use Pixelmator almost 90% of the time now:
1. Loads quickly
2. Has awesome magic eraser tool
3. Doesn’t hog up a ton of memory space
4. Slices and exports
5. Simplified palettes
6. Cheap! $59!!!
I’m not 100% converted yet because:
1. Type tools not fully formed to handle large bodies of copy.
2. Some Photoshop files don’t import completely.
I bought Pixelmator, too. When I need some nitpicky pixel work (especially transparencies for my websites) now and then, I find I have to fall back on GIMP. Pixelmator’s selection tools can be a little awkward and insensitive at times.
+1 on Pixelmator. Fulfills the 80/20 rule for me, AND it adheres to the Apple HIG (Human Interface Guidelines) to a high degree, which is terribly important when using an app as much as one might use Photoshop or Pixelmator.
Oh, i just hope that Adobe will return a favor to Apple, and develop only for Windows.
We will see how fast their core users (graphic design community) will find itself lost with all the iPhone malware that is good for consuming media, not making one. The same community that promoted Apple during their survival stages will suddenly see that Adobe is far more important than Apple for their success.
Apple killed Premiere on the Mac because Adobe screwed around. So, go for it Adobe. You won’t really be missed much and Apple has about a billion bucks to replace your craptastic software.
Replace software with their own and become more of a monopoly. Brilliant move.
You realize it will probably hurt Adobe more to leave the Apple ecosystem right? Especially now that the ‘core’ users of apple products include the millions of iPhone, iPad, and iPod Touch users.
Agreed. A very large part of Adobe’s income is generated from sales of licences of their OS X applications. A huge number of cretive professionals use Adobe products on the Mac platform, so Adobe would stand to lose a significant amount of profit if it stopped coding for OS X, not to mention opening the door to competitors that they previously dominated.
All this talk of Apple and Adobe needing to work together is just silly. Apple wants its developers to code natively for iDevices. That keeps the quality up and means that the developers are putting more intentional effort into making good applications rather than just porting from a different codebase. Adobe is taking the piss, so shouldn’t be too upset that Apple don’t want to accept ex-Flash apps onto the iPhone. They should have anticipated the decision. If you’re a Flash dev that is interested in coding for iPhone OS, get a Mac, join the developer programme and start using Xcode. If you have an object oriented programming background then it won’t take you long to learn. Start now so you don’t get left behind.
If you want to develop for the PS3 you have to use sony’s development kit and agree to their terms and conditions. If you want to develop for the wii or the xbox 360 ditto. Same for PSP and Nintendo DS. This is nothing new and yet because it’s Apple people are loosing their minds.
I don’t see people complaining that they can’t develop for game consoles with flash. I don’t see people complaining that they can’t develop for the DS or the PSP with flash. So why is Apple singled out ?
People need to get a grip and stop overreacting to every single thing Apple does. It reminds me of the constant phoney outrage you see on Fox to everything the president or congress does. Sensational and devoid of reality
wha’?!?! you can’t implement flash in freakin’ mouse, even thou that’s programmable too. but that’s not the point. xbox, ps3, psp & ds are game consoles made FOR PLAYING GAMES. apple makes computers. you use computers for different shit. why should i be forced to dumb down my code just because apple wants to keep holding a monopoly on ideas. not to mention dumbing down code that already exists. and no, html5 is not a solution. won’t be till 2020 or smth.
I think Tom hit the nail on the head actually.
You are confusing the lack of Flash Player on the iPhone with the most recent announcement that Apple is not permitting iPhone apps that have been coded in and exported from Flash. This second issue is what Tom is refering to. Coding in Objective-C is certainly not ‘dumbing down’.
> I don’t see people complaining that they can’t develop for game consoles with flash.
Except if you wrote a flash to Obj-C compiler (exactly what Adobe did), you could compile the obj-c to a dll and load it from an app on xbox/ps3. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a company restricting what LANGUAGE you can write your code in. It’s all ARMv6 assembly in the end…
“Negatory.” It’s not an “Objective-C compiler” …
http://www.devwhy.com/blog/2009/10/8/flash-on-the-iphone.html
Thank you.
This is not about Adobe. It’s about the entire third-party development ecosystem. Unity3d being the most successful. Pitching this as about Adobe just confuses things and gets people worked up about whether Flash sucks or not.
What really sucks is non-native controls, not language used to implement the app logic. I’d be fine if Apple banned apps that tried to trick users into thinking they were using native controls. That never works (Qt, Java, etc being good examples). But none of the frameworks, except HTML5 apps, try to do this. HTML5 apps are currently the worst. Even iTunes on the iPad is substandard because it tries to fake a native feel. Apple should find another way to police quality. Just say apps need to be responsive and follow Apple’s UI guidelines. That’s draconian, but at least it isn’t explicitly anticompetitive.
[...] Ho trovato a riguardo un ottimo articolo, che ho ripreso e tradotto, aggiungendo alcuni dettagli. Trovate, comunque, l’articolo originale, a questo indirizzo. [...]
Sorry guys, as a Windows user I have to say that it’s not that Adobe Flash was never fixed for the Mac, it is just a screwed on the Windows system. Video FAIL, Memory Leak check. There is no need for revenge, just that Adobe flash is really bad.
Having said that, the door was closed by Apple on all platforms. and I as a windows user cannot develop for the Iphone and Ipad device. This sucks big time! and Apple should change that ASAP.
The one big thing to remember is that if you want to code for VB.net / C# you have to use MS’s tools (unless they’ve changed that since I switched). If you want to code for Xbox you’ll use XNA, etc. Visual Studio is about $500 according to microsoft.com so you’ll need that and a computer.
If you buy an Apple the IDE is free. It even works on a Mac Mini (available, without student or other discount, for $599). So think of it as your cost to get “Visual Studio: iPad Edition” and you’re there. It’s a bit more than MS’s Visual Studio but if you can find a computer for less than $99 that can run Visual Studio 2010 then more power to you.
Microsoft does provide the express versions of Visual Studio which are free. They don’t have all the bells and whistles of the pay versions but that’s expected. (I haven’t followed up on XNA so I’m in no position to comment there.)
Alternatively, you have other free viable options as well for programming Windows applications including Mono, SharpDevelop, Eclipse, and a myriad of others.
Speaking as someone who develops both in Xcode and Visual Studio, the IDE tools by Microsoft are still superior as far as the developer experience goes.
Also, I assume it’s a typo, but good luck finding any Mac for $99. You can run VS2010 on a $300 Dell but it wouldn’t be any developer’s optimal choice just like most developers on a Mac wouldn’t choose a low end model if they’re trying to develop.
@Greg “Also, I assume it’s a typo, but good luck finding any Mac for $99. You can run VS2010 on a $300 …”
He meant you can buy a Mac mini for 600 bucks and use the free development tools, in comparison with paying 500 bucks for visual studio and then having $99 to buy a computer. Also VS2010 requires a medium high end computer, because it’s a bit bloated. XCode runs perfectly fine in a mac mini.
“if you want to code for VB.net / C# you have to use MS’s tools”
Wrong. You have numerous tools you can use, SharpDevelop, Eclipse, Mono, etc. You can run C# on non-windows machines.
“If you want to code for Xbox you’ll use XNA, etc.”
No, you don’t. You can, but you don’t have to. However, XNA is a very nice framework for games, something Apple doesn’t offer (or if it does, I haven’t heard about it).
“Visual Studio is about $500 according to microsoft.com so you’ll need that and a computer.”
VS Express is free, and has pretty much everything a developer needs. Even the XNA stuff. Then you have the other editors I mentioned before.
“If you buy an Apple the IDE is free.”
If you are forced to buy something, it’s not exactly free. But, I’ll just say that so is MS’s offerings.
“It even works on a Mac Mini”
So do IDE’s for C# and other languages. And they are free.
I’m not going to get into the debate, but there are fundamental problems with what you are saying.
And yes, VS Express is a fair comparison to what Apple offers. Especially when you consider the Frameworks that MS offers as well. Apple could learn a LOT from MS on how to provide developers with tools and frameworks. I speak from experience here.
I can’t wait when adobe stops making ANY software for Apple and Mac’s become useless. Buwahaha. :-p
You live in a closet, don’t you?
Well he indeed lives in a closet.
In a closet of a third world banana republic.
Just look at his level of english language proficiency.
Poor fanboys in third world countries roll their own hardware,
most of their software is pirated; and since they didn’t have
tuition money nor could qualify for a student visa, their
livelihood as “programers” is a night course in Flash
Development.
The demise of Flash threatens their livelihood plans;
their self respect as wanna be first world “programers”
and thus all this endless stupid anti-Apple flash-party.
LOL, if you’re serious about computers u roll your own hardware. you configure your own system, you don’t get dumbed down by any “ecosystem”. get over yourselves apple fanboys. also, flash isn’t going anywhere, same for apple.
Takes one to know one Apple Gaytards
Interesting read! and some good comments here as well
Sounds as if you’re speculating a “BWC” on AAPL’s part. Maybe so.
Anyhow, for my part (and not suggesting this to anyone else) I’ve been trying to wean myself away from ADBE products for quite awhile, just because they’re so blamed expensive, always have been, always will be, and getting worse. That’s a *real* BWC.
I’ve seen plenty gripes about, not only ADBE Flash, but Reader, Dreamweaver, Photoshop, and on, and on…on both Windoze and MacOSX (can’t say I’ve spoken with Linux users). I know there’s alternatives to ALL these. So, ADBE folks, better clean up yer act!
Oh, and, we should thank ADBE for the technology so laboriously developed that enables “flash cookies” to trace our visits across the web! Flash cookies are a new way of tracing your movement and storing a lot more information about you than with normal cookies. You have to visit the Adobe website to find out how to display their content and control them!
You end the article saying they made a wrong bet? How can you even say that? Adobe made the decision to support a much larger market and surprise it worked. I am a pro Apple user of many years and still think this latest move is a shit one. Apple is a small fish in the tech world (excluding mobile hardware) and they talk like they are kings.
I actually hope Adobe just works with Apple as much as possible, but if it comes to an end I hope they (Adobe) pull the rug out from under Apple. Then maybe they will stop this elitist mentality and stop building closed ecosystem products. Don’t even get me started on their poor hardware choices (non-removable battery in a laptop), Apple has basically lost their mind.
Flame me all you want, if you work in the industry you realize its the talent and professional, not the hardware and software that defines us. Use whatever works, support what you like and quit being an elitist.
>Apple is a small fish in the tech world
Hmmm. The 3rd largest company in the US and they’re a “small fish”?
>Use whatever works, support what you like
Exactly. Go somewhere else if you don’t like it.
I was referring to computer market share, not just size of the company. Compared to Windows/Microsoft they are a mom/pop company. Thats what I meant.
You do realize Apple is on the top 100 companies in the world. While Adobe is around the 620~ ish position? Apple’s profit numbers == billions. Adobe’s === millions. That being said, what larger market? Flash is still crap in Windows AND Adobe ignored the mobile market for years before coming up with a solution… for Android and RIM.
you do realize that market share sucks right?
I think the iPhone platform might be popular. I’m not completely sure, but I have this hunch that Apple might even have ONE OF THE BIGGEST MARKET SHARES IN THE SMARTPHONE INDUSTRY.
But I could be wrong.
[...] http://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself/ [...]
There’s nothing that’s perfect. Why not just pick what works best for you and be happy with your choice. PC/Mac, Adobe/Apple. Don’t get your panties in a bunch.
For those who do want to do something about it. Why not create something that suits your needs.
“Inovate or die, bitches”?
You make me laugh. Relax—BITCH. Apple is fine, so is Adobe. Before you begin jizzing your pants w/ your death march theory—read the latest economic forescast for Adobe. Right, you haven’t.
PS: awesome Photoshop alternative examples. Dominating applications they are. Powerhouses.
Debunked…
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1257639
You make me laugh. Not a drop of real “debunking” there.
Sorry to confuse you. That’s what’s know as a “web link”. You click on it to read the information on the following (i.e. linked) page.
If you read the next page, you’ll see how this article used exaggerated claims by selectively picking facts out of context with the time or situation they were written or by implying arrogance through omission of evidence to the contrary..
No confusion here – you really make me laugh!
Bad article for many, many reasons.
Like someone has already said, it makes no difference HOW an iPhone/iPad app is created (i.e. whether it was compiled from Flash or from Objective-C). Apple is screening all the apps anyway (which in itself is a HUGE question mark and a separate argument altogether…) so why should it matter how the app was created?
They’re doing it for political and strategic reasons… which is fine since they own the platform, but they’re not being honest about it.
It’s like blocking applications that were created using Vi and allowing those created with Emacs…and then telling people that the reason Vi is blocked is because those apps are horrible.
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself In 1996 when Apple was seemingly on the ropes, Adobe made a crucial business decision and one that is coming back to [...] [...]
Then what about Unity3D, MonoTouch, Titanium and other 3rd party iPhone tools that are getting locked out of iPhone development? Especially Unity3D which has made some really cool 3D games on the iPhone that likely wouldn’t have happened otherwise. Plus all the developers and companies who had invested in these tools and are now getting screwed over by suddenly getting locked out?
Anyone who picked one of those tools to develop an app exclusive to the iPhone OS made a really bad decision (Apple never claimed to support ANY TOOLS except the iPhone SDK) and now they’re paying for it. If they picked those tools because they could deliver on multiple platforms then they still can – sans iPhone OS.
I agree completely. When in Rome, do as Romans do. I do think that if Apple bought and made Unity 3d better so game developers are still allowed to use it, it would be a godsend for their brand image.
yep, they’re paying for making great apps. sound logic here.
As a designer, I am using the best there is to help me do my job, be it Apple hardware and Adobe software.
I can easily throw Apple away and get a pro PC to compensate but I can’t afford to lose Adobe and their tools if I want to keep doing my thing and do it right.
There are many industries that support Adobe, few that support Apple.
All the games are made for PCs first, all the creative industries from movies to advertising are using Adobe products, etc. and we are talking billions in revenue and you expect all these people to use *alternative* software to do their jobs? Man, you are all crazy and ignorant people, you know that right?
Flash vs. HTML5? Comparing apples to an apple basket
There isn’t anything to discuss on this matter so stop it already!
You need Adobe’s tools to design, edit, develop etc. the content for the web, mobile etc. markets OR ANY OTHER MARKET THERE IS!
Sorry but we don’t need HTML5 yet when not all the browsers today don’t even fully support HTML4 so stop with the non-sense if you’re not a developer.
I mean, if you guys are not designers or developers with all due respect you just need to STFU right?
I, as a designer or my fellow coders must have a say in this and I’m pissed on Apple and we all kinda starting to get pissed.
In a few years Apple will be gone again if we all decide to switch to PCs, Androids and other platforms and fully support those. We helped Apple rise, we can again sink it and I think Steve Jobs needs to keep it real.
There is no content if we aren’t allowed to use whatever we need to get our jobs done! If I want to use Flash CS5 to build Apps then I should be able to do so. If not, fine, I will create for Android and fuck all the people that bought iPads and think they don’t need Flash or whatever, when it comes to the bottom line
Plus most the hype against Flash is generated by tech/geek people and fanboys, etc. They don’t use the platform, don’t produce anything and expect to have a saying? You are wrong guys.
Every company works for itself. If Adobe “screw” Apple all those years ago, they did the right thing then for their company to keep going.
Plus Apple is not that good with software, most of their updates are huge (from a v.1.1.2 to v.1.1.3 you need to install a 200-500MB package?! wtf?!)
So you all just need to stop with all this blah-blah and get back to work.
Cheers,
Dragos
>all the creative industries from movies to advertising are using Adobe products
Movies? Not so much. Do you REALLY think that a company with a BILLION dollars in liquid assets couldn’t develop it’s own competition to any Adobe product if it really wanted to? Remember, they did it with Final Cut.
>Flash vs. HTML5? Comparing apples to an apple basket There isn’t anything to discuss on this matter so stop it already!
OK, expert – please tell me what Flash can do that you can’t do in HTML5. More importantly, what 90% of flash websites can’t be replaced with HTML5 and why?
>You need Adobe’s tools to design, edit, develop etc. the content for the web, mobile etc. markets OR ANY OTHER MARKET THERE IS!
Really? Proof please.
>I mean, if you guys are not designers or developers with all due respect you just need to STFU right?
I am.
>There is no content if we aren’t allowed to use whatever we need to get our jobs done! If I want to use Flash CS5 to build Apps then I should be able to do so. If not, fine, I will create for Android and fuck all the people that bought iPads and think they don’t need Flash or whatever, when it comes to the bottom line
Wonderful. Enjoy your shrinking job opportunities.
>So you all just need to stop with all this blah-blah and get back to work.
And, so, may I ask, WTF are you doing here then?
> OK, expert – please tell me what Flash can do that you can’t do in HTML5. More importantly, what 90% of flash websites can’t be replaced with HTML5 and why?
I can create and publish a file to the Web that moves a simple rectangle on a curve across the screen. It will look exactly the same in every browser. It will be viewable by nearly every browser. I will be done in under two minutes.
Until there are no rendering inconsistencies between browsers, until HTML5 has over 90% penetration, and until you can do rapid prototyping similar to what the Flash IDE provides, HTML5 doesn’t stand a chance.
Considering that there is still a significant portion of the Web still using IE6, I estimate that it will be at least 5-10 years before HTML5 is a threat to Flash.
I live near Hollywood, and assumed that the industry embraced FinalCut. Turns out, most Motion Graphics people prefer AfterEffects.
I’m a user. Not a developer. From my user perspective Flash just fell off the map when I installed ClickToFlash. Best software I have ever installed. No more Flash.
Most of the ‘hype’ against Flash comes from both, the tech people and the end users. As a designer, I can’t wait for Flash to disappear. It’s basically the solution for DRM and intrusive and non-accessible advertising on the web. As a web-developer I’m happy to see Flash go for real semantic, usable technologies not dependent on a crappy plugin from a company that in all honesty I’d rather not have to go to for software. As a programmer and developer I’m happy to see Apple restrict access to their Appstore ecosystem to Flash fanbois coming to pollute not only the store it self, but the market itself. This at least creates a firm line where the cost (read skill and knowledge) of creating an App is worth it because of the monetary compensations.
The real question most iDiots seem to forget is what on earth is Quicktime for again ?
It suffers all the same problems as Flash, constant updates, only uses hardware exceleration on Macs and isn’t a free or open standard.
There is no good guy in this argument it is two companies trying to close each other down while Google and Microsoft breath down their necks.
What in hell does QuickTime have to do with anything? In terms of web video (which is only a *small* factor in a much larger issue), the argument isn’t Flash vs QuickTime, it’s Flash vs h264, which is an open standard.
If anyone is an iDiot [sic], it’s people who don’t understand the issues yet argue anyway.
Constant updates is a bad thing? Your arguments are misguided at least and retarded at worst.
Apple is Microsoft in your historical metaphor though. They have the dominant platform. They want to avoid ports to other platforms — they want to leverage their present dominance into future dominance. So Apple rewrites the license to make it much harder to maintain cross platform apps. That doesn’t make it any less likely for Apple to get apps since they are the number one mobile platform. It means all the other platforms get left out. Just like the mac used to get left out of ports for years and years.
Anyone who picked Unity made a bad decision? Are you familiar with game development best practices at all?
yeah gee, shame on adobe, catering for 95% of the market instead of the 5% apple MINORITY
HARD TO BELIEVE ISN’T IT GENTS
Like how Adobe has completely ignored 100% of the mobile market for years until recently? Apple minority? You call a minority all the people that use iPhone OS?
The apparent riff and lack of communication between Adobe and Apple serves only to penalize developers, IMHO. I miss the good ol days when it was simply Apple vs Microsoft and Apple was considered the ‘underdog’. Now there is no underdog and it’s 2 very large companys with a lot of baggage to deal with. I sometimes wonder if things would be very different today had Adobe not bought Macromedia…
I really miss Macromedia. They seemed like a much more responsive and innovative company than Adobe. I also resent Adobe’s near-monopoly on professional design applications such as Photoshop and inDesign. I wish they had more competition, although I also wish Apple had a bit more credible competition in the mobile market, if only to keep Apple on their toes and continually improving my iPhone
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself « Sharing the truth one thread at a time. Share/Save Si te gustó este artículo, por favor compartilo! Tagged with: adobe [...]
[...] full post on Hacker News If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it! Tagged with: Adobe • [...]
So basically if Adobe had thought this through better they should have just refused to port any Adobe product to the Mac after OSX came along.
OSX still has a small market share, and most design houses save money by building workstations in house, if only Mac OSX was available for us all to install that would kill Windows very quickly but Apple still want to squeeze at least 40% out of all their customers.
They both suck in their own ways but no matter how much I hate flash, I hate Quicktime too.
@Huhster: People who know computers don’t buy Apple? People who know computers know that a 5k mac pro is not equivalent to a 2k PC just because the components names sound similar. People who know computers appreciate the commodity of good product design and aesthetics with quality components that apple provides.
Seriously now? I have a MacPro, MacBook Pro and a few Windows computers and know for damn sure the cost is almost double that of a PC component. For instance, go and buy memory for a Mac, now price that EXACT memory from the source and you will save almost 50%. Same goes with hard drives, processors, video cards and optical drives.
Not to mention the fact Macs can’t always run the latest video cards. I would love to have eyefinity on my MacPro for video and Premiere work! How about charging for adapters and extras that should be included in your so called “5K purchase”.
Seriously what? It’s a common truth that any informed system builder will tell you. I’ll give you an example. A 4k Mac Pro gets you a 3.33GHz Nehalem Quad-Core Intel Xeon which costs 1,7k in the market. A decent board runs you 300 to 450 dollars for this socket… So half the price is already taken only by the processor and motherboard. I’ve built machines with similar specs to Mac Pros, and the amount of money you save by doing so is not what people want to make believe. In my case, I’d rather buy one that looks like I want it to look and there’s the extra benefit that I don’t have to build it myself.
Now, I’ll give you that buying ram from apple is retarded given the prices of ram in the retail sector. That’s why almost nobody does it. And also that Mac’s don’t always get the latest videocards… Damn Nvidia and Ati, for not makeing more Mac compatible cards.
Cool. I think I just figured out how to get a massive amount of web traffic to my site. A Mac vs PC flame war…
It’s never gonna end… muahahahaa (cough cough)
“Somehow, Apple making a business decision to protect its customers from your shitty product is the most egregious ethical concern of our time.”
Tell me the “shitty product” part is hyperbole.
[...] bet in 1996 and is suffering the consequences in 2010 and has no one to blame except themselves.Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Sharing the truth one thread at a time I think a big part of Flash and Adobe's problem in 2010 is that they hung their hat on the wrong [...]
You article has some merit, but you can’t chastise Adobe for being unethical and portraying Apple as being an under-recognized white knight. Apple isn’t “protecting its customers” from Adobe’s “shitty” products – they are locking customers into their products and highly inflated prices points.
I agree that Adobe should’ve supported Apple earlier, but Apple not supporting Adobe products today is just as bad a business decision.
Indeed you are right!
Plus, what to support in those days? Mac OS was not the OS it is today, Adobe didn’t had the CS so…why do people still bother with this is beyond me at this point.
We’re all gonna continue to buy both Apple and Adobe products in the future so any further comments are simply useless.
Cheers!
“How about Adobe start fixing their relationship with the Apple community one step at a time: fix Flash for the desktop and then we can chat about the iPhone, iPad and i….”
Hey chill, Adobe’s CS5 is not just Flash
Just as Apple doesn’t sell just iphones and ipads and just as not all developers will be using Flash CS5 to build the next versions of their apps so why bother with this silly argument?
The “Apple community” IS ALSO THE “Adobe community” mostly so…who got screwed? I’m still buying the next MBPro next year and upgrade to CS5 when it will come out so…who got screwed really?
Anyways, read this: http://daringfireball.net/2010/04/why_apple_changed_section_331
I can’t believe the argument in this article is about Adobe’s support of Apple. Were it not for Adobe, Apple would have gone the way of the dinosaurs. The author has forgotten that Apple was steadfast about sticking to the RISC processors until they decided to grow the hell up and put in Intel. Adobe is in business to make money, NOT support a company so wrapped up in its own ego and insistence of creating a monoculture. The SINGLE reason Adobe didn’t support Apple is because of this stupid architecture. They would have, literally, had to support two completely different architectures when one of them was not only ancient, but served around 1% of the market!
Of course Adobe wasn’t interested in supporting the ridiculous standards that Apple insists upon. It’s the same reason that Apple remained a third rate company for so many years. Again, what kept Apple alive? Designers. What kept and keeps PCs alive? Unlike Apple, business and gaming. The HARDWARE for PCs is OPEN. The ENTIRE computer industry exists because of the 808x architecture and Windows and the ability for manufacturers to compete with each other and produce the products they do today. It’s the same market that Steve Jobs now bitches about because Apple is now 3% of the market (last I remember).
What did Apple do when manufacturers tried to sell their architecture? Sued them.
Remember the 1984 commercial? Apple is about freedom of expression? Remember all the terrible advertising Apple uses against Windows? It’s all the same story: Steve Jobs is an egomaniac who is late to the game and the only way for him to succeed is to update Apple to every other company, then bitch about them…
iPod? Not original. Not at all.
iPad? Not original. Not at all.
OS X? Not original. Not at all.
Google is terrifyingly powerful, but I hope the Chrome OS puts the nail in the “PC” part of Apple’s business.
Then we can all get some peace.
“It’s the same market that Steve Jobs now bitches about because Apple is now 3% of the market (last I remember).”
Apple computers are used by over 50% of creative professionals (I don’t know many in the print industry who will touch anything made on a PC) and over 80% of the education market.
You make it sound like Adobe was doing charity when they were putting out Photoshop when Apple was using RISC processors and make mention of Apple making up 1% of the market. Apple has NEVER composed 1% of the market! In fact, it is close to 10% and growing (up 30% over last year).
Who buys typical Adobe products like CS5? Typical computer users? Photoshop CS5 is $699. CS5 starts is $1299. Acrobat 9 is $449. Lightroom is $299. Some of these prices dwarf the cost of a computer! Hardly typical. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that most of Adobe’s products are being purchased by creative professionals, the majority of which use Apple products. Unless, of coure, you are going to tell me that the bulk of Adobe’s profits are generated by Windows users buying Photoshop Elements at $99.
Don’t kid yourself about Adobe’s intentions. It would be far cheaper for Adobe to support one OS and they know it. One OS means less redundancy in development. They have been trying to gauge for sometime who will triumph in the OS wars and maneuvering in subtle ways to bolster the chances of one coming out on top. The reason they are subtle is because many in the creative community have a strong distaste for Microsoft regarding both their business practices and their operating system (especially when it comes to dealing with malware). Adobe does not want to piss off the biggest portion of their clientele. I have been working in both the creative industry and IT management for two decades and have seen this all firsthand.
You just hit the nail directly on the head. Bravo.
[...] article about apple and adobe heres the link: Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Sharing the truth one thread at a time heres a Command C of it In 1996 when Apple was seemingly on the ropes, Adobe made a crucial [...]
[...] Discussion: Response to Sorry Adobe, you screwed yourself [...]
what a ridiculous post. in the 90s NOTHING was offered for Mac. i couldn’t even find a music player for my .MP3s. apple still has barely 10% US market share of personal computers, so where did adobe go wrong? all you fucking retarded mac fanboys live in such a small world.
enjoy the lock in by your cult leader, fools.
You must have a time machine! The first mp3 players did not come out until 1999. Judging by the vitriol in your post, that year must have been pure agony.
By 2000, there were several mp3 players made by third parties that supported the Mac, or are you really just angry that Apple didn’t come out with its own ‘official’ mp3 player (iPod) until 2001? If so, you must be really pissed at Microsoft, as they have yet to come out with a decent player and here it is 9 years later.
By the way, how are things in the future?
he was referring to the format .mp3. you know what that is, right, apple fanboy?
I have reached the conclusion that 100% of the Adobe fanboys that are up in arms against Apple are flunkies with no real education, that have managed to learn to staple together flash products and think they have a bright professional future as developers and “programers” on the back of their flunky night course at their community college on “Flash Programing”.
These are guys that are too cheap, or don’t have the money (since they don’t have any useful skills — it’s no surprise) to buy decent hardware or software.
They roll their own hardware, and most of their software is pirated — starting with the OS they love, XP service pack 3.
The demise of Flash threatens their livelihood; their self respect as wanna be “programers” and their only rest-of-their lives Plan-B is to insult Apple and its growing tens of millions of Apple users, with the hope that might somehow restore Flash to being the meal ticket to a bright career prospects “developing” for the iPad, iPod, iPhone, and OSX Mac systems.
What a pathetic display of the lowest common denominator on a human scale.
Sorry, but I call bullshit. Apple has a PLATFORM, and Adobe, up until a few years ago was a TOOL VENDOR.
But then they doubled down on what, to end users was a crappy browser plugin.
And they told everyone that it was ‘ubiquitous’.. as in, ‘suck it.’
Going from being a tool vendor to hinging your future on a dubious plugin was bad enough.
Competing with one platform vendor (Silverlight) and telling the other one to go screw themselves is just plain suicide.
If you’re a TOOL VENDOR, you owe some respect to the OS Vendors that you run on. Unless you want to start cranking out your own workstations and selling the software to run on it. (SGI, Apple, etc)
But Adobe has nothing now. The put aside their publishing business to focus EXCLUSIVELY on the crappy plugin. And had the temerity to call it a ‘platform’.
Break out the popcorn, kids. Let the SEC filings, name changes to “Flash, Inc” and eventual mass layoffs ala Quark and executive ouster ala HP begin.
I believe you’re rewriting history to make a point about a company that has always kept itself closed. If i remember correctly, the first version of OSX was awful and did not run very well on the majority of Apple computers (then 400MHz dual as a maximum speed) OS9′s usability was just as good and more stable as an Operating System. Running Applications like Photoshop in ‘Classic’ was great and you could have many layers open and run After FX at the same time. More over, you had the ability to manage your own extension set as well as decide how much RAM you needed to dedicate to softwares.
You expect Adobe to rewrite their software for yet another surprise OS release of Apple’s? Who’s more arrogant? A company that releases OS’s at whim or one that sticks to a toolset that works?
In regards to Premiere. Anyone using Premiere as a professional knew that it wasn’t very good, the toolset was too complicated and the usability was ill-conceived. Final Cut Pro had better usability taking what it could from Avid and delivering it upon their own platform (easy for Apple to do) rather than releasing a ‘dud’ software, Adobe decided to rework their toolset.
Windows was a larger market and they tested usability on one platform (smart move) but it didn’t matter anyway, because Avid had the Windows market on lock down for Video Editing suites.
Adobe has built its reputation on amazing toolsets. Not runtimes, not processors speeds or any of the rumours that Apple spreads about it.
Flash is amazing, it’s interactive video on the web! Which one of you can build that? Apple hasn’t even built that! HTML5 has a video standard and that’s it.
HTML5 is just HTML with hype. If you would like to know more about the truth behind HTML and why Apple is so keen to have H.264 as a standard.
Check this post out http://blog.nothingGrinder.com/id-rather-be-a-woz and then see who is closed and arrogant.
[...] can read (and I recommend that you do so) the full post here. This post is in response to a blunt statement about Apple by an Adobe representative. You can [...]
The past: countless browser crashes.
My latest best friend: ClickToFlash.
Now: zero crashes.
That is so true. ClickToFlash has all but eliminated my Flash-instigated crashes. I say instigated due to looking at all the crash reports when it _does_ happen. 9 times – nay, almost 10 times – out of ten, it’s Flash Player.
The tenth time is because Flash corrupted browser memory.
I second that one! I would love to have that when I (sometimes) use Windows …
Flash “Developers” are like Real Estate Agents.
They both were able to make money during the past decade without true skills or an in-depth analytical education.
During the real estate bubble anyone could be a real estate “professional” and think of himself as worthy of driving a luxury car and vacationing in tropical paradises. Even if their natural career path was really to be a salesman or saleswoman at Macy’s — which is were many actually came from and where many went back to after the bubble burst — for a time period they were successful professionals; or at least that’s what they thought themselves.
I see the same thing happening in this Apple vs Adobe explosive hate flame wars. It is beginning to dawn on these faux “programers” that their Flash bubble is about to burst and it’s back to selling shoes at Nordstrom for most of them — and they are squaling like pigs about to be impaled.
Maybe they should study to get licensed as real estate “professionals”;
they may have a better chance in that other industry for professional impostors.
Bravo, Mr. Smith. I cannot agree more. Flash does have a “low barrier of entry” but is wonky compared to other options.
Besides death and taxes, another certainty in life is that good programmers need to constantly be updating their skill sets. Programming languages come and go in popularity. During the .com bubble, many of my friends with recent CS degrees were banking that Java would keep them gainfully employed their whole lives. Guess what, they were wrong. Next it was .Net, then Perl, Ruby, PHP, etc, etc. How is the demand for Basic and Pascal these days?
At one time, Adobe wanted Flash dead, dead, dead. They pushed web consortiums to move AWAY from Flash. That all changed once they bought Macromedia. Now Flash is their cash cow and want to preserve it.
If I were a programmer, I’d look at the potential of HTML5 and seriously pick up a book.
[...] Wow, the images move! It's like being in 1996 all over again. That's right bitches I'm back. You probably already read this but I think this perfectly sums up the current situation. It's all political. And Adobe have dug their own grave with Apple for sure. Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Sharing the truth one thread at a time [...]
I would add the nonsense of LiveCycle. What? You don’t know what the hell this is? Ask Adobe why is screwing there 1/3 of its force.
I’m sorry but Adobe was right on money. OS X will never catch on as long as Apple keeps pricing their macs at price points that are twice and thrice the price points of equivalent PCs. Apple seriously needs to get their heads out of their asses and the so-called Apple store “geniuses” are the biggest losers I have ever met. – Arunabh Das
Wow! I thought the days of Apple haters spreading FUD were a thing of the past.
“Don’t buy into the old argument that Mac laptops are categorically more expensive than Windows machines. Sometimes that’s true–but they’re often on par with, or cost less than, their closest Windows laptop equivalents.”
- James A. Martin, PC World, July 2008
Shall we compare Mac vs PC servers?
“There are certainly numerous legitimate business reasons (Windows OS-required to power legacy or proprietary applications, sunken costs, etc.) that justify deploying Windows servers in the enterprise. But many organizations could be better served deploying more approachable, more cost-efficient Mac OS X servers. If nothing else, Windows administrators owe it to themselves to discover what Mac server professionals already know: Mac OS X Server is an incredibly powerful, feature-rich OS that can lower costs, simplify maintenance and increase productivity.”
- Erik Eckel, Tech Republic, October 2009
Finally, I think 30% year-over-year growth is a going in the right direction.
Apple have made massive growth through a recession right in the face of market trends. Did you miss that?
As Juan promptly corrected you. Apple hardware is not twice and thrice their price points of equivalent PCs. You’re trusting the FUD generally spread over the internet by people who dislike Justin Long.
And not to put too fine a point on it, but I have a powerbook G4 that runs OS X and serves as a great paperweight / doorstop if anyone wants it, it’s yours. – Arunabh Das
Hey Juan – I agree with you about the fact that Adobe is going to stand by Flash for as long as the sun hangs in the sky and the desert has sand. But I think the point that you’re making about Java is so far from the truth. Java is the de-facto standard for programming most mobile devices today (except iPhones, for which you need to learn Objective C). I can’t believe you are trying to dismiss Java in your comment. – Arunabh Das
Not in the least, Arunabh. Some of my friends who know Java have found Java-related work since the bubble burst. However, the ones that found jobs faster were ones that kept up with what was on the horizon. Technology keeps evolving at a breakneck pace.
Professionals in the legal and medical fields have to keep up with advances in their specialties. I would argue that those fields don’t change half as fast as the technology industry.
I am guessing you are old enough to have experienced software ported from one OS to another. How often are ports as good or superior to software written in a language native to a device? I cannot think of one example.
Just because Java is ubiquitous is not a good argument to its superiority. If that were the case, Windows devices would have swept Consumer Reports’ latest survey. Further, until the iPhone, it was the Telcos (at least in the U.S.) that dictated what went on their phones and is thought to be one reason why Verizon initially balked at the iPhone.
I think Apple’s intention is to ensure the best experience for their customers. I believe they knew they risked irritating developers by keeping Flash out but were willing to take that risk before CS5 came out and Pandora’s box was open.
The iPhone’s success is in no small way the result of the amazing app library developers have created. Apple would be needlessly shooting themselves in the foot if it was simply to spite Adobe.
As for Objective C, which has influenced Java, it is at least based on open source. Can the same be said for Flash? Interestingly, this past Friday, Google weighed additional support behind HTML5.
I think we are also jumping the gun. There is some speculation that some of Apple’s motivation for reigning in the use of run-time systems has to do with implementation of their new multitasking capability. It is pretty sexy and does not require the use of an app killer (unlike my HTC Hero).
My beef is with the cacophony of those who seem to really have an agenda to bad mouth Apple. When someone or something has had success for several years, human nature’s predilection for demagoguery seems to rear its ugly head. Until I hear Apple is making back-room deals keeping business partners from carrying competitors’ products (ex. No Android phones on AT&T. 5 are set to be released in Q1 and Q2 of 2010), I think Apple deserves the benefit of the doubt.
Heaven forbid we ever get into the walled garden debate concerning game consoles and exclusive deals!
Java is a horrible horrible programming language. I work with it every single day, and each day it becomes more apparent that it was an ill conceived contraption from hell. That being said, lots of companies in the tech sector that swore by java are moving away from it. Slowly. It wont die off course, Java is actually a useful language despite the fact that its awful, but it is becoming harder everyday to find quality employment for it.
“Adobe never committed – standing by its prediction that OS X would never gain momentum or share and it would ride the Windows ascendancy.”
Ha! Sounds like a smart business move to me. Look where it got them. 2010 and Apple OS has finally topped 10%… uh… big whoop. Apple OS remains an insignificant player in the world.
And, Oh poor Adobe, they’ll just have to embrace Android now because… Apple hates them.. but wait, Apple hates Google, and they hate netbooks, then of course there is the open source community, and don’t forget about their old nemesis Microsoft. And then there is the latest.. they hate anyone who doesn’t code on Apple software. hmm Looks like Apple hats pretty much every one so where does that leave Apple?
This article is just fanboy emo-drivel.
The way Apple forces users to sync through iTunes, locks out basic functionality (such as custom SMS tones), shuns USB forcing everyone to buy their rip-off plugs and adaptors, is unquestionably making it “all about Apple” rather than the consumer. And now they prevent users from creating and using Flash because of… what, they hold a grudge? Apple holding a grudge can’t be good for the consumer.
I have a jail-broken iPhone at the moment, but my next phone will NOT be an iPhone.
Why does Apple need to allow flash on iPhone when no one else does on any smartphones.
Adobe sucks!
Listening to the Adobe fanboys is as absurd as reading a site for real estate agent to keep pumping the cool aid that real estate price only go up and this is a great time to buy.
Listening to real estate agents for advise on the economy and insightful financial forecasting is ludicrous — but listening to the Flash monkeys views about trends in mobile computing, platforms, and programing is beginning to look equally misinformed, biased by personal dreams of professional viability, and complete lack of intelligent discourse.
The Adobe fanboys comments make me wish for the real estate platitudes, they are sometimes less brain dead than the ones one can find here.
At least intelligent normal people seem to get it:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/4/11/856114/-My-iPad-as-a-tool
[...] the iPhone developer agreement. Steve Jobs, Apple’s founder, does not like Flash (there is a history of tension between the two companies) and thinks its tools would lower the quality of iPad [...]
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself [...]
Since early 90ties I used to make my graphic works with a vector graphic application called FreeHand on Mac. To me it was (and still is) the best vector graphic application on earth. It was developed originally by Aldus, then acquired by Macromedia, and in the end by Adobe, with the solely will to make it die in favor of its bloated and unfriendly counterpart Illustrator.
Adobe, I will always hate you for this.
If somebody wants to know more about this story and maybe join the brave people trying to make Freehand survive, please visit http://www.freefreehand.com/freefreehand/
Man, I love Freehand. It is so intuitive and easy to use. Illustrator feels so clunky. Freehand was built by designers & creators who needs the freedom to design and change on the fly (ummm I’ll need some text here… a little to the left, and make the text a bit larger, wrap it around the picture…); Illustrator was built by engineers & technicians, who knew their final product and just needed the software to implement them (make a 50p x 300p text box, fill it with 17 words in Times-Roman-make it so. Click-clack).
Aldus was a dream company. The made PageMaker, too. PageMaker was the very best page layout software ever. I wish Apple could have bought Aldus instead of Adobe.
With the exception of Photoshop, Adobe just buys the best companies and ruins their software. They bought GoLive, scuttled it for DreamWeaver and killed the software. They bought Freehand, took it’s best features to use in Illustrator and then wiped out Freehand too. Adobe bought PageMaker and killed that off, while using PageMaker’s carcass to create a behemoth called InDesign. Adobe bought Macromedia just to own Flash, and they just don’t understand how it works. No wonder Flash is so difficult for Adobe. Adobe is trying to make Flash all engineery and Flash is a designery piece of software, and Adobe doesn’t do designy things to well.
Whatever happened to doing what’s right for the customer? I need Apple and Adobe to work together.
AS a developer I need them both. For our sake and for the sake of the end user just get a long.
look it’s neither apple nor adobe who’s really being screwed here – it us, the user! If apple continues on its merry way then people will still develop Flash products, just people using the ipad or iphone won’t be able to see it and just plain annoying.
I won’t buy an ipad until Apple puts the user and user experience first.
I’d also like to point out that Apple wouldn’t have gained any of it’s market share without the help of Microsoft in the first place. I am not surprised that Adobe thought that Apple might just die in the arse again.
If I remember correctly, Microsoft was helped by Apple when the Macintosh came out and created DeskTop publishing (with a bump in grade by Aldus and a postcript language developer called Adobe). Up until then, Microsoft’s Word was being trounced by WordPerfect.
Back then, people laughed at Apple’s Maintosh because, it was small and used a device called a ‘mouse’. “IBM-compatabiles didn’t need no sissy mouse-thing!” was the taunt… unil a couple of years later when the IBM compatibles came out with an invention they called… a ‘mouse.” for use on the ‘new’ Windows shell over their MS-DOS ( a version of QDOS by Tim Patterson).
Oh, and Apple does seem to put the user and user experience first.
That’s why their products are easy to use.
They practically invented “plug-n-play out-of-the-box.”
I remember when a consumer first bought a computer using Windows, you actually had to get a computer IT person to set it up for you. It didn’t even come with a manual, just a consumer warranty card and maybe some cables.
Apple sucks, Adobe and Windows rock together, Period.
Capitalist people love Apple and Socialist people love Windows and Open source OS’s. 50% of Apple is open source? Really now? If it was then I’d be using a Mac and tweaking every bit of it like I’m doing with my windows. People don’t tweak mac because it’s fucked up and very small group of people know to crack their codes. So IT IS NOT OPEN SOURCE AND THEY ARE NOT FREE TO BE OPEN SOURCE.
Windows supports hell load of softwares because it’s flexible enough and if you think Windows is not reliable then it’s not Windows’ fault, it’s users’ fault who put malicious softwared in the first place. See, people who make malicious programmes are people who support the use of Windows. They don’t use Mac to create a bug for windows because Mac simply sucks and fails to do that.
Like I said, Apple followers are the people who doesn’t know the basics of computer and I call them Ignorant.
You really have no idea what Open Source means, right?
You lack an understanding of basic English language. You don’t comprehend what open source is about. Windows is completely closed source, while OSX is based on an open source OS – therefore you are wrong. Crack their codes? Hahahahah. Windows supports hell loads? That sounds evil and kinky at the same time. People who create “malicious programmes” (whatever a ‘programmes’ is) are the ones who support Windows according to you. Sounds like a good reason for you to actually move to OSX or any Linux variant for that matter.
So I don’t know the basics of computers and I infer you believe you do right? Since I’m a developer (past 15 years) and I’ve been doing systems integration since a decade ago, I feel compelled to inform you that you’re not just wrong… you’re an idiot. Ignorant fool.
>(whatever a ‘programmes’ is)
It is the plural of “programme”, a British English way of spelling “program”. The internet =/= the USA.
also, Apple used copyrighted programs from Nokia and Erriscon to use in their iPods and iPads and there is a law suit going on.
So Apple doped itself because it cannot get Adobe to work for them.
Therefore, Apple lose.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/23/technology/companies/23nokia.html you can see the follow up news about it using google. Another great opensource platform.
What on earth is the author going on about? what a load of junk opinionated bull.
Essential they think that adobe’s current circumstance with flash is purely because they weren’t nice to apple when the times were tough for apple.
in reality, its business. why wouldnt it be?
to my opinion (and im sensible enough to disclose when its opinion, not fact) this is 100% because both adobe didnt open up enough and because apple wants to control the developer authoring channel. Flash is an easy target because the flash client doesn’t create web standard svg/javascript which makes it an easy target to discriminate against through technology. if it were standard they would have to maliciously break the open web by removing their own already working code in webkit and that would be significantly harder to explain away.
the author is a complete moron. they remind me of extreme religious types who see bad things happening to bad people and explain it as the lords vengeance or karma. its purely circumstantial and rants like that are speculative noise disguised as insight.
apple want to keep their monopoly and are willing to be dicks to other companies when possible. end of story, the rest doesn’t matter.
So, I just picked your comment because it was close and was so anti-Apple. and so very Pro-Flash.
)
Do you delete your browser cookies?
Did you know that Flash stores it’s own proprietorycookies in a location ON YOUR computer where your own browser cannot get to?
Just go to your Flash Settings and see how many cookies there are. Every site that uses Flash has a cookie there. Every. Site.
Even the ones you deny Flash cookies too!
I just checked my Flash Settings and I had tons and tons of Flash-based cookies… even though I deleted all about a month ago and I use “Click2Flash.”
One even had a mention of my computer’s web-cam, which strangely enough, my computer doesn’t have a web-cam on it. I wonder if my camera and microphone can be activated without me knowing about it? Think of the fun that would be on a smartphone! Hah!
Greetings from India.
In India, there are dedicated followers of Mac. More like a cult following but few in numbers. Economising is the top priority in India. I have heard people say that the best thing about Adobe Premier is it is free. But as long as it does the same thing as FCP or AVID, an average Indian doesnt really care.
I am a fan of Mac. I have worked in hard core multimedia (Video Editing) in both Mac and MS platforms. I must Mac is way ahead in terms of performance and also Price. With a lot of people(Non-professionals) using tools to edit personal video, They will all use Adobe products as they are very happy with Windows XP!!!. They will change their OS only if they find problem with it. As long as a lot of web applications is supported by XP, there is a long way to for MAC to make serious inroads into MS’s territory.
Whatever I have said is India centric. MAC will be praised only if they can provide extra quality at MS’s price. Till that time, they may continue to lag in India.
You people that keep talking about Apple’s global marketshare and how Adobe is doing Apple a favor supporting their “crappy OS” have obviously never worked in web development, the printing industry, the publishing industry, video production, advertising or art or spoken to people that do. These industries are Adobe’s bread and butter and where Apple dominates.
To avoid confusion, I am referring to the U.S., Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and parts of Asia. No doubts there are pockets of the world where there are exceptions. However, the geographic territories where Adobe makes the vast bulk of their money are dominated by Apple.
Where I live, Adobe Premier is $800.
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is this article made to backup apple’s attitude? if yes youre a fucking tool
Supporting or not supporting any particular platform, which is very expensive and time-consuming for applications as large and complex as those from Adobe, is a simple business decision. Indirectly preventing a tool developer such as Adobe from enabling developers to create and deploy content with its tools is not even close to the same sort of thing.
Regardless of the history between the two companies, Apple’s latest move prohibits Flash developers who very much want to support Apple’s platforms from doing so using the tools we know and want to use. If the original-language requirement is about quality then Apple can easily screen applications just as it always has before allowing them through the gate into its walled garden. If it’s about corporate spite or preventing multi-platform development, though, that hurts developers.
How about Adobe keep saying screw Apple and create flash for Android and the future Chrome OS. I can honestly see Google surpassing Apple in the near future.
I think that Google may just skipp Apple entirely and surpass Microsoft in the near future.
“Apple sucks at making good reliable open platforms.
Just switch to Windows.” – by Nick Kilo
Whatever. Enjoy your virus laden crappy OS, it sounds like you deserve each other.
[...] April 12, 2010 · Leave a Comment Innovate or die, bitches. via innerdaemon.wordpress.com [...]
[...] Apple Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Is 2011 like 1994 for Apple, Twitter, Facebook, and the Web? 19 days later, Apple still [...]
hmmh .. nice post ..
Would you exchange links with me?
http://xtrahot.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/teens-part-1/
[...] postsgoodies « Concurs cu licenţe kaspersky Adobe lanseaza CS5 Suparati ca acum cativa ani au fost prosti si au neglijat Apple, care acum le-o da la bot, Adobe lanseaza Creative Suite 5. Care nu face nimic [...]
You guys grow up and stop acting like football hooligans. There are 2 sides in this and both sides made mistakes, so stop blaming eachother all the time.
Adobe did good things apple did good things and so did microsoft.
stop beeing a fanboy that only say my product is the best and everything else sucks. Be happy there is competition, otherwise there would be nothing left to whine about. Competition keeps you sharp to continue innovating, and that can only be good for the consumer.
I’m just wondering what Mono touch did to upset Apple and the other third party iPhone development tools. The new terms and conditions seem to have banned all of these as well.
This basically shows that OS X is an inferior platform for webdesigners, illustrators, etc. (as for anybody else).
They should all use superior Windows 7.
Only a fool would have chosen Apple over Windows in 1996 or today. 1% of the market vs 90%? What company in their right mind would choose 1% when it could have 90%?
You Apple fan boy hypocrites are loyal but foolish. I actually feel dumber after reading this article. If you honestly think that Apple’s decision is based on anything but money I have some oceanfront property in Colorado to sell you.
You are probably correct about the 1996 part.
However, I think the issue with Apple’s decision to abandon a mobile Flash is many. Including money of course, I mean that’s why Adobe screwed with Apple right? back in 1996? Y’know 1% over 90% (hey that leaves 9% for Linux & others! Yay!)
Apple probably isn’t in a rush to include a mobile Flash because of, yes money, but also because using Flash would just suck a processor’s power away, and that means draining the battery. (Why else do you have to keep your laptop plugged in?), Also there is that security thing. I mean Flash actually puts Flash cookies on your computer from every site you visit. Cookies that are not connected to your browser, and not deleted by any cookie-crunching deletion plugin. Flash can turn on your camera and microphone, probably record things too…. like text messages and keystrokes. Flash is very, very programmable… even by near non programmers.
Sorry you feel dumber by reading an article. However, if you are selling property in Colorado, if the price is right, I’m sure you’ll have plenty of takers, Calling it “oceanfront” doesn’t matter… because it is property in Colorado!
[...] offensichtlich eine späte Rache dar. 1996 hatte Adobe nämlich noch verkündet, dass Windows die wichtigste Plattform für ihre Produkte sei . Viele Entwicklungen waren Monate lang nicht für den Mac verfügbar. Eine [...]
[...] Flash を使わせろ、使わせないの論争は、SDK 規約変更や Jobs のメール騒動にまで発展、アドビの自業自得だという話まで出ている。 [...]
[...] d’un juste retour des choses sur un passif depuis presque 20 ans de la part d’Adobe à délaisser la plateforme MacOs outils (ce qui est un peu rancunier quand même), et que à présent qu’Apple a suffisamment de [...]
i was in print at the time that came out and i remember that. As a platform the mac was failing, the powerpc chip was flaky and quite often not living up to the workhorse quadra chips before it. Adobe was looking at pulling out as a business decision because premiere was very popular on pc and the hardware was waaaay cheaper.
As I remember it, quark xpress did a similar thing in the early noughties by maintaining version 5 on the older mac os 9 platform for the same reason (having to create new code for osx and maintain it’s code for the older platform) and it was Adobe’s InDesign helped apple to maintain it’s popularity with production / design and to maintain it’s momentum with osx
apple has always been fickle but now that they are the big brand on campus, it turns out the plucky underdog was a bully after all
Hey, me too!
Quark’s only saving grace was that it could “print” CMYK and PageMaker had to have a work around! Quark didn’t feel the need to support Macs… until PageMaker could export printing in CMYK. A couple of years later and everybody abandoned Quark for PageMaker, Adobe bought Aldus and cannabalized it for InDesign.
Quark originally only on the Mac, then a couplea years later, a Windows version came out the it took over DTP for a while. Then it stopped supprting Apple, lost it’s market share to Adobe InDesign… I even have a copy of Quark5 for Windows as a freebie from a magazine! I know it’s up to version 8… but it’s largely been replaced now. Kinda sad, really. At one time it was king of the world.
But y’know the PowerPC chip was never flaky. If Motorola hadn’t quit the chip-makin’ bidness, the PowerPC would probably still be in Macs.
Everyone abandoned Quark for PageMaker?
You weren’t *really* in print at that time, were you? ; )
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself [...]
Thanx it explained a lot
Couldn’t agree more! It’s not a Mac vs PC thing. Those who think it is, get over it.
The fact that I can get a return flight from the UK to NY, catch a show, and a very nice meal, pop into a local tech store and buy CS4 for the same price as purchasing it here in the UK demonstrates utter arrogance and contempt for its users. And that has nothing to do with exchange rates…
They need to stop stamping their feet like like little kids and do what their shareholders expect of them – make them money by good business. If that means climbing down off their massively high horse, so be it – It’s business, not a bloody popularity contest.
And once again, it has nothing to with being a PC vs Mac debate. It’s simply crap business acumen.
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself ttp://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself/ [...]
Well this is a concept, so no one should expect all the details to be there. And only 1st year work?
Awesome.
my nokia n96 runs flash and have multitasking.
As I remember, MacOS in versions 8 and 9 crashed so often that my colleague changed keyboard on every two months. I think keys S and Cmd had been wearing from constant use.
At that time, it was smart move for Adobe to focus on Win platform instead of dying Mac. None could predict rise of Apple happened after Jobs came. It was unbelievable.
Those 50 billion worth of Apple doesn’t stand for 50 billion worth mobile business as Jobs said. Apple is not huge name in mobile market. Maybe in USA, but not in rest of the world. Nokia is dominant player, with Symbian (a crap) dominant OS. Nokia’s market share of smartphone market is 4x bigger than iPhones. For the truth, it is shrinking as iPhone 3GS is better product than Nokia’s flagship phones.
It is legal from Apple to protect their users from crappy software. I’m web developer and I don’t like framworks, layers, meta layers and other “helping” stuff, but banning other computer languages for developing native iPhone apps is just fascistic move. I would like to develop native iPhone apps in Perl, Phyton, Lisp… it is all matter of compiler. Situation we have is similar to those of MS 15 years ago, when MS kept closed Win API and forced developers to use their tools. That’s bad.
Here’s a interesting twist. AS3 is based on ECMAScript4 proposal. In other words, on JavaScript2. So, it will be perfectly legal to use AS3 for iPhone apps if compiler compiles directly to iPhone native code.
Instead of bashing against Adobe, Mac users should strive for greater freedom of choosing development tools.
I still have a PowerPc that uses MacOS 9 and it works great… just slow ;o)
And, yes, Flash was (and is) a problem for it. I think your friend must’ve had bad ram. Oh, and I never had MacOS 8… just went from 7 to 9.
I, too think that Apple should at least look at Apps created in other software, even CS5. I mean, come on! An App is an App. If it can work in an iPhone/iPad why not just allow it? Of course I can say that because I am an end-user and not a developer or programmer. I really don’t care how an App is made, just that it does what it does.
One more thing, Apple is known for making things then trying to convince people why it is good: one button mouse better than two button, use of mouse faster than keyboard,2G is better than 3G, no multitasking is better than multitasking (or opposite?)…
[...] Sorry Adobe you screwed yourself… [...]
[...] Sorry Adobe you screwed yourself… [...]
[...] Sorry Adobe you screwed yourself… [...]
Excellent read. Thanks.
[...] this why the Inner Daemon blog supposes one reason Apple has gone to war against Adobe is probably thanks to a decision Adobe made almost [...]
[...] this why the Inner Daemon blog supposes one reason Apple has gone to war against Adobe is probably thanks to a decision Adobe made almost [...]
I am pretty sure that Photoshop was ported to OSX far earlier than 2005, together with all the other apps of the suite.
I remember Photoshop 7 on OSX in 2002, and there is evidence for that online:
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/128&vid=47518&mode=info
It was capable to run in OS 9 and OS X 10.1, both natively and in classic mode.
So in this particular case, I would say you are bending the truth quite a bit, without providing any source for your research.
As a developer for the plugin http://scriptographer.org for Adobe Illustrator since 2001, I never had the impression that Adobe was abandoning the Apple platform to an extend you describe here. In the last decade, Apple’s Mac OS went through many transitions, from OS 9 to X, from PowerPC to Intel and from Carbon to Cocoa. Adobe always appeared to be committed to follow these transitions, although sometimes that process consumed more time than we liked. I imagine the whole Adobe codebase is a complex collection of many applications with each a very different history, making it hard to navigate it all through such massive changes. Nevertheless Adobe managed each time, and their core applications do not seem less committed on the Mac today than they do on PC.
Meanwhile on Windows, the changes these apps had to go through were far less radical, explaining maybe why you got the impression Adobe was abandoning the Mac OS.
I don’t have a Windows computer, never did. I have always been a Mac user since 1985/86.
I can tell you that Photoshop first came out on a Mac.
Only until PhotoShop 2.5 was it ported to Windows.
And For MacOSX, Photoshop7 was released in two modes, Classic and OSX sometime in 2001/2
Sidenote: I even have a copy of the beta version of PhotoSop.. 0.63b somewhere and I have a friend that has a copy of ImagePro he got with a scanner or something. ImagePro was the predecessor of PhotoShop, nee Photoshop.
One more thing: The problems with the Flash Authoring app on the Mac platform go far beyond the time Adobe acquired Macromedia. They have to do with the same transitions described above, which Macromedia executed worse for all of their apps on the Mac than Adobe. Adobe appears to not be the only big company who struggled with these changes, and maybe Apple is partly to blame for this as well?
I understand your frustration about the current state of things in the Adobe tool park, but I think you are getting some important facts wrong here. Your stated decision by Adobe in 1996 has very little to do with Flash Authoring not working well on Mac OS today.
[...] introduced for Windows first and followed months later, sometimes never at all, by a Mac version. Read more 19.017656 [...]
I guess people always have to have a topic for “holy wars”, that’s why it is coming so specifically to Adobe vs Apple.
But just look to the wider view:
1. Consumers are going to adopt touch screen devices (not only iPad but also upcoming big number of Chome OS, Win7 and some Linux based tablets). Sales will go up to 10 mln this year, hundred(s) millions in the next year(s).
2. Almost ALL applications and websites should be redesigned to offer a good user experience on touch devices. It is not about Flash or any other technology, it is about user experience and user interface. If you think that Flash sites opened on the Chome OS tablet will be useful, you are very wrong. And you hardly can use desktop experience with gmail on the touch screen, so they have to change it as well. Super “Standards Based” websites, listed in http://www.stumbleupon.com/su/2SdzZX/www.smashingmagazine.com/2010/04/12/the-gradual-disappearance-of-flash-websites/ will have same troubles with user experience, as Flash sites.
3. As developers will adopt or completely redesign sites for touch devices, customers who experienced touch interface will expect the same on the desktops, and most probably sooner or later touch enabled sites will be opened on the desktop browsers as well, so they will provide equivalent experience. And touch enabled means a lot. Start considering that there will be no mouse hovering, mouse right click or double click. Layout might change. The whole interaction might be redesigned.
I don’t know how long it will last for discussion on who is good or evil between Apple’s and Adobe’s funs and developers. I would recommend to think about nearest future in terms of if are you ready for mobile touch devices.
[...] chi volesse approfondire la questione, su InnerDaemon c’è un interessante post intitolato grossomodo “Spiacente, Adobe, ti sei fregata da [...]
[...] السابق ترجمة لهذا المقال باللغة الانجليزية ”Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself“ ”آسف يا أدوبي و لكن أنتم من تلفظ بالحماقات“. و هو رد [...]
Adobe’s logic makes sense. Apple is a tremendously unstable platform from a developer’s point of view. Adobe just spent a ton of cash to support the iPhone. Apple pulled the rug out from under them. Apple has done that to partners in the past… Remember the whole Apple clone market? Apple licensed MacOS to a bunch of companies, and encouraged them to make Mac clones. Suddenly, with no notice, they cut off licensing. A whole industry of Apple partners went out of business overnight. Less outrageously, Apple makes big platform and licensing changes all the time. Windows 3.1 applications are only now stopping to run. In the meantime, Apple make three major platform changes almost overnight: 68k->PPC. PPC->x86. MacOS->OSX.
If you’re a developer, you find out about a lot of these changes at the same time as everyone else: As the products start shipping, and suddenly, your business model goes out the window.
It didn’t make sense for Adobe to support Apple in 1996, and it doesn’t make sense for anyone major to develop anything major for the iPhone either. Little $1 applications? Sure. Anything requiring major investment? No way. Go for Android or JavaME.
Peter, this is what I am hearing from developers too. It’s what’s making people predict a future drop in Apple shares when the open source world comes out in full swing, just like PCs dominated Macs — way more developers.
What you speak of had nothing to do with opensource or developers. It had to do with consumer vision. Consumers consumed so much Windows, it because the de facto OS. Now with mobile platforms the same thing is happening. The important demographic is the end consumer, and end consumers are buying iPhone, iPads, iWhatevers more than ever. I just makes sense to support not only advances in technology, but the actual developers who make it possible. This move helps keep a barrier of entry that is extremely important to keep the ecosystem healthy.
This is I think the best recap post of the Adobe/Apple flame war going on. Happy that someone step up and call them out on their 1996 and early 2000 bad behavior, ditching Apple products as much as they can to built a stronger Microsoft PC base users for them.
Yes, the recap is really good, and i agree that apple tends to be really unpredictive and they excercise too much control over their products. Approving each and every app for your platform is just not good, i feel the user and the community should have a much more control over what they want, and not the company and i guess apple iphone will get a really tough competition from android based phones in the coming years if it manages to settle down well, just bcoz of this reason.
I have nothing against Adobe. They made a viable business decision. Apple does this sort of thing many MANY more times than Adobe. They only care about business, at the end of the day.
As I read through this article and its comments, I am left wondering how many of the authors are old enough to remember the mid-1980′s. Let me refresh your memories…
Once upon a time, there was Mac and it was incredibly innovative and cool and good. And Apple made all sorts of promises to open it up… even to allow clones to be built. (You know you’re too young to remember this if CHRP or the Somerset Design Center don’t mean anything to you.) It was 3-4 years before Windows caught up and, in that time, Apple took to suing clone-makers and even decided it owned the idea for a trashcan icon.
But the economics of software development are that developers are strongly incented to develop first for the platform with the biggest market share. No matter how good the Mac was, DOS was always dominant. And no matter how inferior Windows was, it rapidly overtook Mac in number of seats… especially with business customers (you know, the ones with the big checkbooks). Developers fled the Mac and Apple’s moves to market Apple applications — to compete with them — made it worse. Adobe made a simple business decision.
Apple is now repeating history. No — don’t say “everything’s different now.” Sorry, that’s so 1999 dotcom. Everything is not different. The evidence of this is Apple’s own switch of Mac to x86… driven almost entirely by the fact that Mac volumes are insufficient to support custom processor development (like Mac G5).
iPhone is great and innovative and will probably always be better in some real ways. However, other platforms are manufactured in higher volumes and therefore offer a lower cost hardware base (like PCs). And Apple has begun to make it difficult for developers… by competing with them, by having an arbitrary approval process, by banning popular application areas (i.e., “skin”), by limiting how developers may develop, etc.
Adobe may or may not win its feud with Apple. However, as far as Apple is concerned, he who knows not history (or is so arrogant as to ignore it) is condemned to repeat it.
And for those of you who do like history, I recommend Rick Chapman’s book “In Search of Stupidity.”
Apple’s market share still sucks big time, in the global PC market and in the global smartphone market. Google may be light years behind in smart phone sales and may never touch apple, but business is more likely to buy into the HP slate than the iPad because of it’s compatibility factor than the iPad because of it’s cool factor.
Irrespective, Adobe making a mistake in the past doesn’t mean that Apple returning the favor is the best way forward for the consumer. Most people are out there to consume content, not generate it, so limiting access to content is limiting the potential market.
I think Bruce Chizen started all of this because of some mysterious thing that happened while he was at Claris, and he developed a lifelong hate for anything with an Apple on it.
And come now, this has little to do with Flash, which is their “make the format, sell the development tools” product. This has everything to do with application software and platform revenue.
In Apple’s defense, Adobe has definitely given them the dregs of their development money. They see a bigger market opportunity on Windows, and forgot that Apple’s the innovator. So when Apple innovates massively, and throws up a huge hit like the iPhone OS ecosystem, and Adobe’s still bending over for Windows, who’s to blame?
In Adobe’s defense, when they dreamed up this plan, Apple was massively dysfunctional, and I can see why people at the time would have thought it would just dissolve into irrelevance. Doesn’t excuse why they’re dragging their feet now – Apple has been resurgent and has executed better than any tech company over the past six years.
I imagine the Adobe board meetings, where they’re comparing numbers. They launch new versions of Photoshop on the Mac that have few compelling new features, and sales don’t skyrocket, because they’re selling into an established creative market. They launch new versions of Photoshop on Windows that sell like crazy, because they’re selling into a vast wasteland of crapulous graphics software.
So it gets ever-so-much easier for them to forget the most basic rule – “dance with the one who brung ya.”
Why doesn’t Apple just buy Adobe and be done with it?
Oh boy, can you imagine if Apple bought Adobe? They could seriously impact the way the web works. Sure, they’ll get some backlash from the “i can haz Actionscript, so I am leet programmer!” croud, but it would be so much worth it. They could effectively control the market of the creative world.
I would like to see it! Then Mac fanboys will chant: Flash is glorious, Flash is superb, Flash is eternal! And Flash would be everywhere
I’d love it if they bought Adobe and used their stuff to push HTML 5 adoption.
Because Adobe’s dragging their feet (Microsoft also appears to be dragging their feet, because Silverlight will be marginalized, but that’s a whole ‘nother topic), it’s going to be difficult to get HTML 5 finalized. Why anyone would want proprietary software like Flash as part of what’s intended as a web standard is beyond me.
Anyone with any understanding of Adobe’s past will understand that they’re hardly as pure as driven snow here. I still remember the good old days, when GoLive Cyberstudio was the gold standard and Adobe bought it because they knew it was terrific – then Adobe bought Macromedia, so Dreamweaver became the gold standard, and “Adobe GoLive” (which didn’t even make much sense) was discontinued.
To be completely honest, I’ve always found Flash to be problematic, on Mac and Windows – the entire reason why Chrome and the latest Firefox beta encapsulate each page into its own process is because of plugins that crash the browser. Anyone who’s a wholehearted fan of Flash should pay attention to the things browser developers have to do in order to accommodate it.
Or do you think they’re all so addicted to Flash (in the form of Mafia Wars, FarmVille, and video chat) that they can’t imagine a world that doesn’t depend on bloated proprietary software? Apple’s not pushing some kind of AppleAnimationThingy to replace Flash; they’re just saying Flash is the suck.
After using an iPhone for the past couple of years, I can say with absolute confidence that I haven’t missed Flash for one second. The entire notion that Adobe is upset about losing their Flash monopoly is based more on Adobe’s hubris than anything Apple has done. After years of Adobe’s neglect of their software, Apple. Just. Doesn’t. Do. Flash.
The Adobe response reminds me of Glenn Close’s character in Fatal Attraction while the rabbit’s bubbling on the stove… “I’m not gonna be IGNORED!”.
Adobe as the Glenn Close character in Fatal Attraction is a scary image. Shame on Apple for sleeping around!
Both adobe and apple can suck the fat one. I’m not sure how people think Apple is like a damsel in distress and Adobe is the big bad wolf.
although adobe could make the effort to develop an os-x native suite, their decision not to does not even compare to what apple is doing to adobe. please take a step back and see what the differences are. adobe products run on macs, and they run quite well. apple will not let an adobe product run on their product. apple won’t even let developers use flash to develop profitable iphone apps.
the comparison made in this article would only be valid if adobe did not produce any mac versions of their products, and even going so far as blocking any images created in photoshop from being displayed in os x.
Actually, there is a misconception here. Adobe is the one that did not make possible Flash running in Apple’s mobile devices. Adobe is only recently targeting RIM and Android plugins for their Flash player. Apple blocking Adobe’s attempt to control a portion of the applications on the iPhone OS is a different thing altogether. Apple’s decision effectively raises the bar for entry into the iPhone platform. This effectively protect the developers taking the time and effort to create apps leveraging Apple’s API, at the expense of blocking people using a software layer (a practice that will effectively saturate and undervalue the application market and economy) that compromises Apple’s vision of the AppStore.
UUMmm! Adobe did infact block and/or did not create/include many features/applications/updates for the mac.. period i know i had but a crapy PC to use it…
this article purely specifies that this is a you made your bed now sleep in it scenario …
i.e. adbobe stopped creating products for the mac because of competing products form apple witch is the same DAM thing happeng in reverse so why hate/disprove…
Plus MOBILE IS NOT DESKTOP its a whole dif game now so naturally there gonna be different technologies ect introduced for this enviroment just like the switch from DOS
be an Apple hater all u want i dont care but just be FAIR! all these companies including apple are just making money off us at the end of the day
This episode shows only how childish persons such valued persons as heads of big corporations can be. This kind of revenge stuff is simple and plain childish and belongs to kindergarten!!!
[...] http://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself/ [...]
[...] Link: Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself (Innerdaemon) [...]
[...] Because flash is one big bug and this Daring Fireball: Why Apple Changed Section 3.3.1 and this Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Sharing the truth one thread at a time __________________ I am from [...]
[...] Dall’altra parte Adobe ha fatto una scelta anni fa e dunque non può che accettarne le [...]
This is excellent! I knew there was more to the soup than was first apparent.
We have Apple fanboys here in the office for soo long – nothing you could say to them could make them even consider trying another product if it did not have the Apple logo on it.
Now, after the new SDK policy, every single one of them have stopped using their iPhones, Mac computers etc, and is now using windows platform. Finally they see how much Apples products sucks compared to a lot of other products.
… and in the end it was all to Apple itself haha – I really like the irony!
Sounds like, “You shut your mouth when your talking to me!”
Adobe should totally dump Apple. The biggest con job of the last decade is that Macs are “better” at graphic reproduction. Total lie, color accuracy is determined by your monitor and your pantone swatchbook, not your OS.
The fact is, as a designer I can build a system 2-3X more powerful than a Mac Pro for half the price and get better performance for high-end CPU hungry programs like After Effects. I use a Mac in my office and come home to work in Photoshop on my custom built PC and even with Windows 7, it smokes my mac in terms of speed and production time.
“I can build a system 2-3X more powerful than a Mac Pro for half the price”
No you can not. That’s a fallacy. Your home PC smokes your work Mac, because it probably has better specs, but if you think that Mac costed 2 or 3 times more then either you where conned or are just spreading lies.
2,499 for a quad core Mac Pro with 3GB of RAM and a 640GB HD could be built for 1,400 or less on a PC platform. Hell if I wanted too I could Hackintosh it to boot.
Michael explain to me how you can build the base Mac Pro with 1.4k, when ONLY the processor costs around 1k, specially while good motherboards for this socket cost 300 to 450 bucks. The premium of a few hundred bucks (if applicable) is well worth it if you get support from one place and can avoid actually having to build it yourself.
best of the best power blog tenks admin
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself no love there really [...]
Fixing Flash would be a good start.
Amen
I cant see why apple is pointing the finger to adobe, saying flash player is buggy, sure it is not perfect, it is not, but in the other hand neither the iPhone OS, i have an iphone and it often crashes, even with apple software, specially with safari, and the app store…
In relation to other adobe products, as a web developer, i offen use flash, and i don’t have problems with it. Some times the player crashes, it is true, if you try and use the debugger version you will see, that 99% of the times it is not a player error but an app error, due to programmers errors, yeah none of us like to admit it but most of the times we make crappy code.
Until today i’ve never meet a good programmer that can look to code they did 2 years before and say, it dosen’t have a single error, if i had to do this today it would be the exact same code.
Personally i think that having different technologies working together is great, use HTML5, use Flash use silverlight, we can all learn from each other. I do not like to see my options getting shorten just because, someone thinks that a certain technology will have no future.
As a freelancer i often have to make business decisions, and i can understand a company be reluctant to spend thousands of dolars developing a product for something that will have a small market share, it may not be profitable, and port apps like photoshop or premier to another SO envolves a lot of money and people. Implementing a player is not that costly.
As a developer i really don’t care who is right, i what to be able to deliver my content to the most broadly audience as i can in an costly effective namer. I don’t want to spend a month or more learning another language just because apple thinks i should follow their vision, i’m a client not an employee.
Regardless of the reasons, and the battle between the 2 company’s, i feel betrayed as a costumer, when apple try’s to forces me to follow there ideas. Company’s should focus on costumers no the other way around.
>> As a developer i really don’t care who is right, i what to be able to deliver my content to the most broadly audience as i can in an costly effective namer. I don’t want to spend a month or more learning another language just because apple thinks i should follow their vision, i’m a client not an employee. <<
You don't have to learn another language. You can spend the rest of your life selling your work to people using every platform except the iPhone OS. Nothing that Apple is doing (and nothing they've said) will impact your development work at all.
This whole thing is about people who bet on Adobe, and sank a lot of their time and creativity into Flash. That turns out to be a bad bet, because Adobe isn't doing what it takes to participate on what is arguably the most important mobile platform out there.
So if you WANT to address the iPhone OS community, then you can make the choice of learning to develop for it. If you want to address the existing Flash market, you're welcome to.
The same choices were made when the automobile industry moved from making horse-drawn carriages to making cars. No doubt, there were tons of people who were deeply upset that cars didn't require a harness, or that cars used different wheels and tires than horse carts. Lots of buggy-whip manufacturers went out of business not because their product was bad, but because their product was unnecessary on a car. And for years, harness-makers could make a very good living selling into the existing horse-and-buggy community – even today, there's a market for those products (go talk to the Amish).
So yeah, Apple's not forcing you to do anything.
However, are you really saying that the only acceptable innovative direction is one which guarantees that you don't have to learn anything new? That's your way of forcing Apple to do your thing. Good luck with that.
Miguel,
“Company’s should focus on costumers no the other way around.” I think that is the entire reason Apple doesn’t include Adobe. Nothing would hurt Apple more than a bad customer experience on their devices because of buggy software
Benekditus XVI Pope was having an affair?
Who is she?
Look in here !! http://musictablature.wordpress.com/ouch/
I think there’s a serious misunderstanding in some of the comments in this article. For instance, the port from Classic PPC architecture to native Intel architecture in CS3 WAS A SIGNIFICANT ENGINEERING EFFORT. You can’t just snap your fingers and expect products to magically run on a new OS architecture.
In the case of some of the apps that were not ported to OSX, guess what, they were EOL’d (i.e. LiveMotion, Golive). When something is end-of-lifed, it means customers are no longer buying the products to generate enough ROI to spend engineering dollars for the port.
Adobe has been the one company that has been a major supporter of the Mac platform for over 20 years. Apple would never be where it is today if it were not for Adobe software.
Apple needs Adobe and Adobe needs Apple. Apple should stop the anti-competitive BS and let Flash and Flash-generated apps run on iPhone/Ipad.
In the end, it’s Apple customers that will lose out.
Later this year, many more smartphones, tablets, netbooks, TV’s, will be coming on the market that support the Open Screen project. 19 out of 20 industry leading companies are committed to this project with Adobe Flash at the forefront of the technology. Publish once and deploy everywhere is the vision.
Isn’t that what the net is supposed to be about?
Or perhaps we should go along with Apple and just publish on one platform and let them take over the market completely, blocking out competition across the industry. Do we really want to live in a world where we’re dealing with Microsoft bad business practices again? And yes, this *IS* the same as Microsoft blocking out competitor browsers with IE back in the day. Microsoft were sued over this and so should Apple!
My money is with Adobe on this issue. The web is about open policies and open standards. Every consumer needs to understand that buying the iPad is one step towards a closed and broken web experience. This is a step backward in technology and will stifle innovation. Let’s make sure Apple do not succeed!
>> Apple would never be where it is today if it were not for Adobe software. <> Or perhaps we should go along with Apple and just publish on one platform and let them take over the market completely, blocking out competition across the industry. <> My money is with Adobe on this issue. The web is about open policies and open standards. <<
Flash is not an open standard. It's a proprietary product. Calling it "open" is like saying that you can build any car you like, as long as it runs on Flasholine instead of gasoline. Wow, now there's freedom for you.
Oh, you mean you were speaking metaphorically – as long as it's a proprietary standard that "everybody" uses, it somehow becomes "open?" Adobe thanks you, but your position is a little incoherent.
It’s been years, right? Since Adobe aquired Flash? And everybody says that Flash is buggy, a processor-hog and a security risk.. why doesn’t Adobe just fix it?
And, yes, Apple should do some sort of comprimise with Adobe over Flash. I mean it is on 98% of all computers (not including mobile phones).
Oh wait. Money.
A Flash plugin doesn’t bring in the money. Why fix it much? Better to spend R&D on software that caters to the Flash plugin…. the FREE Flash plugin… so you can make money on selling product.
No wonder these two companies don’t work hard on “fixing” Flash. There’s no money in doing so.
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself « Sharing the truth one thread at a time – [...]
This article is classic! Thanks for the laughs! :0)
It’s not that Adobe simply doesn’t care about Apple. It’s all about operating within the market that makes the most sense. Apple simply doesn’t have enough market share plain and simple. The major market for Adobe products is Windows and may be that way for many more years to come. It just makes sense for Adobe to focus primarily on Windows-based applications rather than Mac at the moment.
Wow, you are such an apple fanboy.
Yes. So?
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself [Inner Daemon]. Related posts:Steve Jobs: Mobile Personality of the Year [...]
This is an interesting perspective that turn-about is fair. In my own blog entry, I suggest that this is all about share of the developers market. Would love to hear your take on my perspective: http://wp.me/pBPqA-1G
[...] Shared Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself « Sharing the truth one thread at a time. [...]
[...] Mac software back when Macs were just getting started. But the road has been bumpy for a while. The Innerdaemon blog traces the tensions back all the way to 1996, when Apple was in trouble and Adobe made a decision [...]
Never mind that Apple has been bleeding Adobe and most other app developers for years by requiring major code changes every time they upgrade their OS. Do you actually think it’s easy to port a legacy app like Photoshop, much less an entire Creative Suite, to Apple’s latest change-everything OS?
Never mind that that “crucial business decision” was the same one the entire software industry made in order to grow their businesses. Windows was *the* game in town and Adobe made it’s shareholders plenty happy by betting on that horse. Apple had 5% of the market so they earned 5% of 3rd-party development.
And to be clear, OSX *still* can’t touch the Windows market so Adobe’s “prediction” that you site was actually correct. Nobody anticipated the iPhone OS.
IMHO, the wrong bet was buying Macromedia. Flash is the problem, not Adobe.
I definitely agree with the majority of this. Windows still is the dominant OS in the market, and Mac only has a small cult-like following.
Another thing to recognize is that apart from what you said about Apple’s “change-everything OS”, it’s difficult to port from one operating system to another, especially in the case of Windows and Apple, which are based on completely different structures.
In my opinion, this really isn’t coming to bite Adobe in the ass, in fact, I think it’s going to result in Apple biting their own ass. Think about it: thousands of developers use Adobe Creative Suite, so when such a large franchise decides to allow exporting to apps for iPhone and iTouch, it would seem like Mac would appreciate it.
In an interview with the CEO of Apple, Jobs claimed that the decision was made to keep quality in the Appstore’s downloads. I call bullshit on this, as third-party IDEs often have much better interfaces than the official one from Apple, leading to better apps. Aside from looking better, I’ve found apps made with such things as Unity3D to crash *less* than those made in Apple’s official dev kit.
TLDR- Apple’s bitching about age old wounds.
” I call bullshit on this, as third-party IDEs often have much better interfaces than the official one from Apple, leading to better apps. Aside from looking better, I’ve found apps made with such things as Unity3D to crash *less* than those made in Apple’s official dev kit.”
Total BS and made up.
For one, the official APIs provide a consistent and very polished interface which is generally what separate iPhones from other Phones that have better hardware.
Two, you are talking about Unity3D which is generally used for games. I hate to break it to you but most games using OpenGL ES aren’t using some apple provided OpenGL interface APIs for the interface. These are often custom made by the developer. Maybe the Unity predefined ones are better than the devs customs, but this isn’t from Apple.
I suspect that your crashing less is total BS and an exaggeration too since generally poor custom OpenGL may result in messed up graphics but hardly massive crashing. Since this would be the only difference over using Unity3D I call BS.
Lightroom was on the Mac first… It spent several years in R&D only on the Mac.
that is because Apple came with Aperture first.
So Adobe had to code in objective-c and cocoa
to bring to market an app in 6 months after Aperture
was released.
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself [...]
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself « Sharing the truth one thread at a time (tags: adobe business apple flash) [...]
[...] rift between Apple/Adobe has some history, it seems: http://innerdaemon.wordpress.c…..-yourself/ [...]
[...] of abstraction suck” Universal Applications and Private APIs Its all about the framework… Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Rethinking a Gospel of the Web Apple Restricts 3rd Party Data in iPhone 4.0 Right now, if you use [...]
[...] Innerdaemon nel suo blog ripercorre alcune delle più importanti comunicazioni che hanno riguardato Adobe su Mac. Su ZDNet (2001) Bruce R. Chizen (attuale CEO di Adobe) disse: Creative professionals will “be able to edit their video in Premiere, edit their images in Photoshop and be able to create DVDs in a very creative way”, Chizen said. But they may not be able to do that on a Mac with an Adobe product. Making a Mac DVD product is “something we’re still evaluating”, Chizen said. [...]
I love XP. Each time I install it, it gets faster and faster.
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself « Sharing the truth one thread at a time (tags: apple adobe flash history ipad mac osx photoshop) [...]
[...] Kara Swisher interviews Adobe CTO Kevin Lynch. I'm wondering at what point Adobe says feckit and builds Flash for Jailbroken iPhones. That's about the only way their apps are going to get on Apple's mobile devices. By the way, here's an interesting take on the situation called "Sorry Adobe, you screwed yourself." [...]
Apple sucks and everyone of these Apple supporters also suck…
Hello,
breaking news
Iphone OS 4.5
Iphone will close down their browser, as there are a lot of malware ridden sites and introduce a new browser where sites should first submit themselves to Apple app-store censor board before being allowed to be rendered on browser. This is being done to protect the innocent and naive Apple customers whose mental ages are little more than 2 year old or a chimpanzee. Also the said site should be written by hand and should be developed on MAC only(we have ways to know this, so do not try to cheat). Apple is the only tech company to have a fully functional and highly efficient censor board. Censor board disapproves the following words anywhere in the said site:
google
android
microsoft
adobe
flash
RIM
Blackberry
nokia
windows
droid
HTC
Amazon
dell
HP
the censor board is trained and qualified staff(Phd) whose only goal in life is act as censors for the rest of their lives, it gives them a lot of meaning in their (sad little) lives.
China is reportedly the contacting Apple to see whether Apple can train their own censor board. It seems the great Chinese firewall is not working as finely as the Apple Censor board. Officials of Chinese communist party are very keen on this.
I read in a Computer mag that Adobe has a tendency to carry viruses & malware w/ it.That’s why I won’t download their latest version.Even though they have since corrected the prob.Don’t know ’bout that.I’ll just do w/ out.
[...] The war between Adobe and Apple is really old and I found an interesting article about it, called Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself. [...]
Apple is good for non-technical person if you are cocoa language programmer or objective C language programmer then it is wise to use Apple machines or phones. But if you compare with other technology and its price it is a piece of shit, there is no compatibility of software available for the Apple. Majorly designer works on Apple Machine but it uses Adobe software only and interesting thing to open any document and managing sheets it use microsoft software if they blocked all the software for the Apple then there is no way to find a way to Apple. Apple is a stubborn company and they are not happy to provide good solutions to the users and developers, instead of
So by your arguments Apple is not good for “technical people”? So by that logic, BSD and Linux are not good for “technical people”. When you compare with other technology such as what? Windows? Compatibility software? What’s that java master? You do realize there is software to edit spreadsheets besides excel right?
I don’t see how Adobe made any errors regarding what would be the dominating platform on the computer marked, and still is. The Fruit Company got lucky with is iMac & iPod and then with is iPhone, they may or may not have gotten lucky again with it’s iPad.
Then Adobe has no problem because
they can target Android and Windows Mobile
and be happy with results. If they want to
code their apps in obj-c then Apple will
put in the AppStore otherwise forget it.
They weren’t being “arrogant,” they were stating a fact and making a statistical decision based on that fact.
If this is why Adobe are acting the way they are, then it just shows what a disgruntled and immature business plan they have.
I can’t wait until Microsoft put their foot down and crush Adobe for all they’re worth.. Silly Mac boys.
Wanna play games? Buy a PC. Wanna development for 95% of the population? Buy a PC. Wanna do anything else? Buy a PC.
Wanna.. Err… Edit photos? Or maybe show off a few fancy animations to your friends? Buy a Mac.
[...] and the hottest platform to no longer having to beg. Today, Apple is more concerned about having to re-live its recent history — getting jerked around by Microsoft or held hostage by Adobe — than what it thinks would be [...]
[...] Apple vs Adobe recently. It all started few years ago, when Flash was forbidden on the iPhone. Somebody claims that it started even before. I really don’t want to get into the chronology of the issue. I [...]
Steve Jobs is an arrogant greedy control freak bastard that knows the apple fanboys are total idiots, morons that gladly swallow any crock of bullshit he gives them:
“Flash is slow”
“No third-apps on iPhone to protect you from viruses”
“No 3G on iPhone because it eats to much battery”
“No iPhone OS 4 on 1st and 2nd gen iPhone because the hardware is too slow”
Bullshit, apple bitches!
All Steve Jobs want is to lure us all into the Apple closed systems, ton put the blinders on, to buy hundreds of dollars of content on the iTunes Store that will be forever only be able to use on Apple-only proprietary hardware. Apple wants us locked it for good.
The whole “Flash is slow” crap is simply Steve Jobs and the other Apple crooks not wanting Apple fanboys idiots to spend any money on any Flash content: Flash games and Flash video (only 85% of all Web video available today).
That’s all. Who else suffers and why is irrelevant to Steve Jobs & Apple. All they want is your money, our money. SUCKERS !!!
1) Flash is not slow. It’s buggy. And it’s awful in the performance department.
2) The appstore is made of third party apps. Apple did this to try and protect the consumer from bad experiences on their phones. Not because of your imaginary viruses.
3) You are seriously complaining that Apples FIRST handset had no 3G when AT&T (the official carrier) was just starting their 3G coverage?
4) You know games have requirements like a model of vidcard or better, o an amount of ram or processor speed. There’s a reason for that, which is the same reason there’s no iPhone OS for 1st and 2nd gen iPhones.
Honestly your arguments suck. A lot.
Also please do tell me which phone manufacturer supported “free” upgrades to their software till 3 years after they sold them… I have a 3 year old 2g and can still pretty much do a lot of things the 3gs can do… You seriously don’t expect apple to give free updates for centuries… 3 years is still a 100 times more than any winmo or symbian upgrades I ever got when I used their phones…
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself – Sharing the Truth One Thread at a Time [...]
When ever I go to a website created in Flash I leave immediately. Who has the time to wait for all the images to load?
nice!
[...] And not to beat a dying horse, but the author of another post on the Apple/Adobe issue, Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself, offers another reason why Adobe finds itself in the unenviable position of being locked out of the [...]
Apple is awful. I laugh when I see the people with an iPhone cause it shows they have a “hey look at me” personality Apple users probably didnt get enough attention from the parents as kids so now they over compensate by buying a device that everyone knows so they can have a conversation about it. Most probably dont even know what they are going to/can use it for. As evidenced by the recent IPuke launch
Do you have a better mobile platform? I want my phone to have the Dropbox, Things, Moneybook, etc apps. I laugh when I hear people spreading this mentality that X platform is better than iPhone OS because of bullshit fanboy reasons. You might prefer an Android phone if you don’t need the apps I do, and if I could get the experience I want in an Android, BBOS, or Symbian phone I’d change, but until that happens the iPhone is the best mobile platform you can use. You sir are worse than Apple fanboys. You’re a Apple hater fanboy. Move along with your crappy phone.
Our family owns two macbook pros, three iphones, two ipod touches and I use a macpro at work that also is running some Windows 7 apps. The only native Windows 7 PC I use is our Media Center and xbox360 extenders.
It’s not Steve Jobs vs. Bill Gates anymore with Mr. Gates retired. Steve Jobs has drive and determination, Microsoft, not so much. Steve Jobs has Apple oozing out of his pores and it shows in the amazing results. Apples stock is almost $250.00 per share and climbing putting a smile on my face!
Adobe is not committed to quality, neither on windows nor on the mac.
[...] I read "Sorry, Adobe, You Screwed Yourself", an article with enough traction to be a meme. Look at the raw emotion in this quote: Adobe had [...]
Please come check out some of my recipes and story!
>> I think Apple is working on that with the iPad. <<
I honestly think this is the reason for the massive response from Adobe.
With the iPad, Apple finally realized their vision of computer-as-appliance. That's the revolution: make a computing device that can actually get real work done into an appliance.
It's natural for people who drive a Hyundai and see a Lamborghini to say it's no big deal – it's just faster, more expensive, and thoroughly impractical, right? They laugh at how hard it is to parallel park, and they ooh and aah at articles that describe the $5,000 cost for a tire change and alignment. But there's envy in their derision, just like there's envy in the derision directed at the iPhone and Apple computers in general.
In the meantime, Apple fans take their productivity improvements and ease of use to the bank every single day. People who have to work on Windows day in and day out simply don't understand. They might as well try to imagine what it's like on the surface of Mars.
Because people can use an iPad the way they use a DVD player or a cable box, it's a transforming technology. It's a Lamborghini Minivan, if you will – sexy as a Lambo, with the utility and sensibilty of a minivan. So Adobe flips out, developers complain that they have to learn new things, and the Apple-haters line up to argue against the new device.
The fun part is that they don't understand the difference between evolution and revolution.
Compared to other tablets, the iPad is revolutionary, like having opposable thumbs. Monkeys without opposable thumbs can sit there, eat bananas and scratch themselves, just like humans can – if all you want to do is those things, it's fine to be a monkey. I have somewhat higher expectations about what I'm going to be able to do with a computing device.
Life is based on evolution where as revolution destroys life.
which is more powerful? which is superior.
You do know monkeys have opposable thumbs, like almost all primates (including humans), right?
Stop being so naive, Apple fanboys; don’t believe everything your boss, control freak Steve Jobs, tells you.
The real reason why control freak Steve Jobs wants developers to use only Apple development tools is just to make it a lot harder for developers to build apps for multiple devices from a single code base. Greedy control freak Steve Jobs does not want the same apps running on Android, Blackberry, WePad, HP Pad, Google Pad and other devices, only on his proprietary Apple hardware.
“Flash is slow”, “Flash is buggy” whatever, is just more bullshit from greedy control freak Steve Jobs. He just does not want his fanboy idiots to spend any of his money on Flash games, Flash movies, Hulu, etc.
Is all part of the grand scheme to squeeze every nickel and dime out of all Apple fanboy morons and everyone else who buys into his Apple-only closed system monopoly.
Oh, and @Jaime, if you believed greedy Steve Jobs that when the iPhone first came out AT&T was “just starting with 3G” you are not just an idiot, but an ignorant idiot. 3G had been around for some time here in the U.S. and elsewhere.
Apple is greediest most deceiving company out there and they suck, the big one. Microsoft should have let them die, years ago, now, it will take a bit longer, but die they will as all control freak driven closed system monopolies, die, sooner or later.
Wow aren’t you a retarded douche bag? I didn’t say that AT&T’s lack of good 3G coverage is the reason the iPhone didn’t have it. I said why complain if AT&T was just starting with 3G. I said this because while AT&T introduced it’s 3g coverage around 2004~2005, they had lousy coverage in select few metropolitan areas and none at all everywhere else. They actually started improving their coverage (and also acquired a few companies while in this transition) and wireless spectrum and connectivity around the same time the iPhone was introduced. Steve Jobs didn’t lie: AT&T wasn’t ready yet to offer the G3 experience. That being said, the reason the iPhone did not have 3G was because the chipset wasn’t powerful enough to carry the 3g functionality at that moment. It made business sense, and did not affect consumers.
Apple makes good computers, good mobile devices, and good software. It caters to their consumers and is known to try to push evolution of technology, although sometimes backing the wrong technologies. You don’t like it, don’t buy it. Since you’re full of insults and retarded assumptions, it’s obvious your a Microsoft groupie, so move along and go play with you’re viruses.
Yeah, I can see that Apple is protecting its’ App store from being duplicated by Android, HP pad,or Google app stores, because developers simply cannot make software that runs on an iPhone work on a Blackberry. Hah! As if the maker of the iPhone Fart App can’t duplicate his hard work and put it on Android. As if the same code won’t work elsewhere?
Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript is free, except for the books and manuals and, oh yes, the LEARNING part.
Adobe Catalyst will only cost $399… plus whatever books and manuals and, oh yes, the LEARNING part. Flash Professional will cost $699 (upgrade $199). And, of course the books and manuals and, yes, the LEARNING part.
DARN that Apple for forcing us NOT to PAY Adobe for us being able to make an App so we can make money on our cool App! Apple is stealing food money from poor Adobe’s children’s mouth!
And when is the last time anybody paid for using Hulu (yet)?
Oh, yeah, I guess Apple is finally more popular than Microsoft if people think that Microsoft is the ‘good” company and Apple is the ‘evil” company.
>> And when is the last time anybody paid for using Hulu (yet)? <<
That's actually a corollary in all of this. There are so many people who honestly believe that Flash is "free." So anyone who thinks Flash is a problem must be "anti-free."
This particular troll can't even come up with a more compelling argument than "Steve Jobs is greedy" – which is utter nonsense. Do these Flash people really believe that by not upporting Flash on the iPhone, there are crowds of people clustered into conference rooms on the Apple campus, rubbing their hands together, chortling with glee, and throwing golden coins in the air? The only things Apple gains by not running Flash are stability, security, and improved battery life.
Heck, I wouldn't care a whit if Apple *did* support Flash on iPhone OS 4, or 5 or 67, or whatever. However, if in their estimation Flash is a stumbling block for innovation (and apparently that's precisely what they've concluded), why should they be forced to support it? In my sense of things, Apple has given extremely compelling reasons to avoid Flash.
They've given Adobe YEARS to get used to the idea of not running Flash on the iPhone. What has Adobe done with that time? Apparently, they've mostly tried to find ways to bypass Apple's development environment. Anyone out there think Adobe doesn't have developers who are competent enough to build an HTML 5 creation suite? Anyone out there ask themselves why they haven't done that?
I'd also be perfectly fine with Flash for its initial purpose, which was to show web graphics and multimedia (not the interactive stuff that has been enabled by ActionScript). Ah, but the Flash advocates only care about the interactive stuff, no matter what the cost.
Next, are we going to hear from the guys who program in Fortran, who are incensed that their language isn't supported on the iPad? Heck, I took Pascal in college; I'm deeply wounded that Apple doesn't support my language. It's almost like they're demanding that I learn something new! Horrors!
an I for an I makes the iPhone/Pad BLIND, deaf and dumb, to be exact.
Dudes, kiss and make up.
How about a manditory mediation intervention, ’cause their children’, they/us/we are a sufferin’
[...] [...]
focusing ones resources to innovate on the right platform is a solid business decision.
While blocking a vendor out from a platform through legal means without a strong clear case sounds like straight on anti-competitive.
Innerdaemon,
one of the reason Carbon was created because
most of the MacToolbox people loathed to
learn objective-c. I was on the NeXT side of
the equation so I remember some of the arguments
used against objc-c are still used today.
So most of the workforce in places like Adobe
foot dragged as well. Most won’t remember that.
[...] vieille rancune envers Adobe. Capilotractée ou pas, j’aime bien l’idée exposée dans cet article sur Innerdaemon: In 1996 when Apple was seemingly on the ropes, Adobe made a crucial business decision and one that [...]
[...] funkcjonalności stron, które nie zdążyły tak jak YouTube zaimplementować HTML5. Adobe długie lata ignorowało Mac OSX, a Apple odpłaca się teraz tym samym, coraz skuteczniej eliminując wszystkie rozwiązania, [...]
i would love to see apple porting they apps to linux replacing my neads to boot in to windows and use adobe apps… starting with quicktime would be a good idea!
[...] 原文链接：Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself [...]
All I know is I can’t watch South Park on my iPad and I wanna claw my eyes out.
And as much of a Mac fanboy as I am, I hope Apple users stay in the minority because these are some nasty games Steve is playing. A little too much control, knowwadamean.
I hear ya.
Product was Macromedia until 2005 (version 8) and was a competitor to Adobe…
You are suggesting the architecture was not compatible and Apple could not have worked with Macromedia back then?
This analysis seems stilted and myopic to say the least
mactards…
Good one
[...] Lo seguro es que no les interesa ceder control Adobe. Aún suponiendo que Flash no tuviera los defectos técnicos que tiene, Apple no va a hacer un esfuerzo para meter algo en su plataforma que potencialmente le puede dar a Adobe el mismo poder del que hablábamos tienen ahora las aplicaciones del API en Twitter. Apple tendría que caminar al ritmo de Adobe, y Adobe tiene un pésimo historial, esto no lo provocó nadie más que ellos mismos. [...]
Great site I really like the theme. I will be sure to visit here more often the topics are very interesting!
set aside the B.S. politics, they tend to impede progress..and only piss people off.. Buyers want the ability to run flash on their mobile platforms…..SO GIVE IT TO THEM AND REAP THE REWARDS!! C.F.S.
Die, Apple, die, you filthy piece of shit !!!
Adobe will die before you moronic moron !!
Obvious troll is obvious !
You’re absolutely right. Spot on.
“Adobe thought that it had the dominant hand and displayed its arrogance in public.”
I’m sorry, but this is a bit silly. There’s nothing arrogant about evaluating which platforms are viable.
Adobe doesn’t have unlimited resources, so they have to make sure they don’t spread themselves thin.
Nothing arrogant about that. He merely stated the facts: They weren’t sure if Mac was a viable platform, but they would keep evaluating it.
Apple is ridiculous!
Apple if for Gays!
HP Slate will be an iPad Killer!
HTML5 does not do what Flash/Silverlight does
Sorry!
And W3C is ridiculous also.
[...] Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself [...]
I think it´s very simple: apps is apple´s businessmodel for the future. Flash let´s anyone create apps (within flash) without restrictions. These apps would be for free on apple meaning: no business-case for apple. That´s why apple won´t support flash – unterstandable from a business perspective.
Sorry but that’s just not true. Flash isn’t supported in the iPhone because Adobe did not develop a player for the platform. They just recently came out with players for Android and Blackberries, which means select future phones will support Flash playback. In any case, that has nothing to do with the issue this article discusses. Apple doesn’t want Adobe having the sort of control over the appstore and its application population that would be possible if they allow Adobe to provide a tool to run Actionscript based programs on the iPhone. It’s a good business decision. It’s good for the advancement of technology.
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We don’t need Flash on mobile. For live webcams there are other solutions. See also http://www.phoneporn.wordpress.com
> They declared that their primary development platform would be Windows; subsequently, every new application or major revision of a product was introduced for Windows first and followed months later, sometimes never at all, by a Mac version.
That is demonstrably false.
Where is your documentation for that claim?
Adobe delivered Apple software when Apple fixed their G*damn bugs in the OS so they could be shipped.
Apple is screwing themselves, and you in the process.
[...] that when Apple almost about to die back in the 90s Adobe did not come to save Apple i.e. -> THIS . But then comes the meat of the whole thing. Steve gives 6 points explaining in length why [...]
[...] and I have no problem with Apple’s position. Though Steve of course does not to mention his long-standing grudge against Adobe going back the mid-90s when Apple was on the ropes. But dripping from every word you can hear Steve thinking “You left us for dead. Now you know [...]
[...] like corporate rivalry, where Apple is using the growing market share of their iPhone/iPad platform to get revenge on Adobe, but there is a much larger issue at play. The future of the web will NOT come from proprietary [...]
[...] AdobeApril 30thSorry Adobe, you screwed yourself. Leave a Reply Name (required) eMail (required) Website [...]
[...] This guy sums up my feelings on it pretty well. (NSFW) [...]
[...] How Adobe screwed themselves with Apple. http://innerdaemon.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/sorry-adobe-you-screwed-yourself [...]
It’s really not Adobe’s fault Apple doesn’t want to adapt.
[...] Whoops. You then followed that move up with nearly a decade worth of under-supporting (or simply not supporting) the Mac. I’m hardly the only one who has noticed this. [...]
[...] May 14, 2010 · Leave a Comment Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself. You made a business decision in 1996 to screw Apple when it needed you most to gain credibility for its fledgling OS with the creative crowd. Somehow, Apple making a business decision to protect its customers from your shitty product is the most egregious ethical concern of our time. via innerdaemon.wordpress.com [...]
[...] Whoops. You then followed that move up with nearly a decade worth of under-supporting (or simply not supporting) the Mac. I’m hardly the only one who has noticed this. [...]
[...] Nu schreeuwt Adobe het uit zij worden geboycot op een zeer populaire platform wat hebben zij verkeerd gedaan en er zijn ook mensen die Apple de schuld geven maar mensen zij zijn niet zielig nee dat hebben ze zelf aan zich zelf te danken lees dit bericht. [...]
Actually, Photoshop supported OS X starting in 2002 with version 7.0: http://oreillynet.com/pub/a/mac/2002/05/07/photoshop7.html
And according to wikipedia, Apple bought Final Cut and shipped the first version in 1999, long before Premiere was discontinued for the Mac (and before OS X even shipped): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Cut_Pro#History
[...] interest, as they demonstrate this is about far more than Flash and has been gestating since 1996. Sorry, Adobe, you screwed yourself Adobe, You Brought An Advertisement To A Gun Fight Enjoy. I know I [...]
[...] そうなのだ。以後10年ほどAdobeがAppleを軽視していた（ないしは製品によってはMac版を出さなかった）ことは周知の通りだ。こうした流れに着目しているのは私だけではない。 [...]
True, sorry Adobe you DID screw yourself, but guess what – on the flipside – sorry Apple; you’re right about Flash being a lame solution for video mobile devices in 2010, since it’s been in Adobe’s hands for ages now… but you can’t just put your head in the sand – it’s consumers who are suffering because you’re simply ignoring the fact that without Flash, the iPad user experience is hindered! (eg; http://hulu.com/watch/145928/infomania-the-ipad-sucks—so-vote-for-tech-report-to-win-a-webby) ADOBE, you fools: hurry the hell up & make Flash better for ALL mobile devices already, (hell, make it better overall!) or give it to someone who will! And APPLE, you schmucks: stop pretending that Flash doesn’t exist & address the glaring issues, so that I can justify buying an iPad! Geez, you two are like children, I swear. I own a MacBook Pro 17′, but I just call it as it is people. When big companies can’t see past their own ego’s, we’re the ones who suffer. To both Apple & Adobe: face the facts & grow up!
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[...] A year ago, Adobe’s Flash seemed to be on top of the world. Now, thanks to Steve Jobs’ direct assault (plus plenty of progress on HTML5 and other factors), Flash appears to be on its way down and out. [...]
[...] A year ago, Adobe’s Flash seemed to be on top of the world. Now, thanks to Steve Jobs’ direct assault (plus plenty of progress on HTML5 and other factors), Flash appears to be on its way down and out. [...]
Think different. Well this is so much different that became a suicide
Well, not to be impressed, it’s not the first time macintosh get a so so bad reputation.
I just can’t understand why s.j. is willing at all cost to destroy his company after so many problems they always had.
Too bad, I want to give away my iphone. Harsh.
[...] all these years, Adobe has not done anything about it, other than stating “Flash issues are caused by OSX“, this is quite a dubious [...]
Very interesting read, so when we going to see Photoshop for Linux ha. Wine will have to do for now I suppose.
Really??
it doesnt`t seem much of a problem for Adobe still it`s more of a problem for Apple
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mobile phones that have built in cameras are my favorite because they can capture those special moments and events ”~
those generic mp3 players that are made in china are really cheap but i still prefer to use my ipod ‘,*
i cant even begin to tell you how much adobe screwed up my pc!!! STAY AWAY FROM adobe LIKE THE FREAKIN PLEAGUE!!! You have been WARNED!!!
[...] Джобса к Adobe — познавательная статья на английском. [link] Комментариев (10) Соседние новости: До ← [...]
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This must be an ancient post because no one knows what they are talking about. The Mac and it’s OS is the best thing going in personal pc’s. I have used and owned Mac’s since 1988 and I have 5 Intel Pro’s at the moment plus a laptop and iMac. You are all wrong in your Windows ranting. Windows platform sucks and is not a good platform. Linux which Mac OS is based upon is foolproof.
Mac OS X is partly based upon FreeBSD—not Linux. And no amount of foolproofing is a match for a sufficiently talented fool. ☺